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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | BTW, it's a trickle down effect. Try and find a tech nowadays that knows how to solder. I cringed when my carpool high school buddy graduated from 2 year tech college with me, and didn't know the difference between an NPN and PNP transistor.
Don't get me started about car mechanics... there's a local commercial running where the 'mechanic' says that he spends more time in front of a computer than under the hood. Yep, and I have a problem with that! |
Your making damn good sense Curt! I have seen other peoples solder work  , Im just glad I know how to solder, and I'm damn good at it 
And I may not build the stuff, but I do know what an NPN and a PNP transistor are, and what they do 
*Score for having a tech dad! *
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| beun wrote: | To make it even worse I have the following two recent anecdotes from a colleague:
1) Actual response from a candidate with a MSEE from a very expensive college): "Yes I have heard about inductors, but I am not sure what they do"
2) Another candidate from another quite reputable college when asked how to make an inductor when his life depended on it: "......(and after a long silence), I have no idea". |
That doesn't sound good. I would think this would be taught in the very first semester.
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So you want a scaler heh? |
Yes, kind of. Read this thread.
https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=23068.html
I was getting some interest from digital owners at Cedia. I think this could be a popular box for both CRT and Digital.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy112 wrote: | I just dont think things should have to be SUPER expensive to get something quality.
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it shouldn't be super expensive. Based on that article, and a little personal experience the most common falure is caps. Recently fixed a friends 2 year old Samsung Plasma, 12 bulged out 3300uf caps in the PS. That could have been avoided so easilly.
Lets say an average of 100 AL EL in a typical set at 10 cents a piece for the crap ones. That's 10 dollars. Lets say you specced the uber fancy 10K hour rated ones and paid 50 cents each buying in bulk. That's only an extra $40. but would likely eliminate 70% of the sets going into land-fills after 2 /3 years.
my friend came very close to dropping $600. for a new set and it was by chance he remembered I fiddle with this stuff. I had the 3300uf caps in stock because they're used on the MArquee HDM sweep drive section. Took me 30 minutes to repair and re-package his board for shipping.
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beun
Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Spanky,
I will look into the Geo chip, it definitely looks interesting. I never saw the other thread by the way.
When I got taught electrical network theory it was my very first class at university and I can tell you after that one you will never not remember what an inductor is, or any of the other fundamental network elements for that matter.
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ESL-0.5 Full Range Electrostatic Loudspeakers | RTC2200 Component to VGA Converter with Gamma Boost
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| beun wrote: | Spanky,
I will look into the Geo chip, it definitely looks interesting. I never saw the other thread by the way.
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That is great. I could imagine that the 3 chip dlp guys would be all over this.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know why you guys dwell over this so? It's not like you can change it or something. A quick thought popped into my head. How many here feel they qualify to bitch? By that my reasoning is this. How many of you have the same projector hanging in the same place for 5 or more years trouble free. If you can honestly raise your hand, then you qualify to bitch. I can't and I have one of the most reliable projectors ever built. 
I see no reason to worry about the lifespan of the current crop of digital direct view displays. The bigger, better display is out before the older one breaks. You'll be hard pressed to convince me that this forum full of early adopters would settle for anything less than the best there is to offer. Something about "keeping up with the Jonses" comes to mind.
C-mon, you know it's true 
_________________
Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Actually my completely stock Marquee 9500 LC has been on the ceiling for 4 years and counting with no issues. 4 years for the BG808s retro upstairs as well. So there! 
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beun
Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I qualify to bitch, my projector is 6 years old and hasn't moved from its position, I have 2 TV's that now are well over 10 years old because they were built indestructible. All the newer ones I bought already died by the way.
I have one car from 1996 (granted its a classic) that I have no intention to get rid off. I tend to keep computers well past their intended life because quite honestly the older ones are better than the new crap. Try to buy a small and light laptop with a 1400x1050 resolution today, you can't since they don't make them anymore.
I could probably go on a while, so yes, I qualify
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ESL-0.5 Full Range Electrostatic Loudspeakers | RTC2200 Component to VGA Converter with Gamma Boost
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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BTW, my 2002 Rav 4 just turned over 408,000 KM (252,000 Mi) with no issues. Original engine and transmission. The real trooper though is the Sony stereo in that Rav. Put it in at about 20K miles, and it's been on every second that I'm driving it.
The internal MP3 player is JUST starting not to read MP3 discs, but works fine on CD. The 10 disc changer under the seat, rarely used does read the MP3s just fine. Much as I hate Sony and their lack of support for the G90, this indash stereo owes me nothing. I really do wonder if a replacement Sony deck today will last the same 8 years though.
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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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My 1977 Cadillac Eldorado is what, almost 34 years old and still kickin ass
Beat that Kia, Toyota, etc etc..!!!
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | Dragnam,
That was your fault for not trying Ubuntu. I bet Ubuntu would have had the driver pre-loaded.
AR,
Ok, how many of your tvs or pjs were bought new? |
All my TV's were bought new except 2.
A Classic 1988 10" Magnavox, and a 10" TV/DVD unit.
None of my projectors were new,although I **almost** pulled the trigger on a Sharp LCD back in the day (1997). Then I watched it and walked away. Best $6000 I never spent.
So that's 12 or so brand new TV's over the last 20 years. I still have all but one. The 35" Sanyo I bought my mom died 3 weeks out of warranty, got it fixed and it died again. Took it back to the repair shop and they couldn't get the parts. Fckers
How many new projectors have you bought?
_________________
Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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my 8500's been up for 6 years, be there until i sell the house and after that if the new owner wants it.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | yes I should but really, you guys sell machines that cost what, 2 or 3 or 4 times as mauch as a new car and don't support it after 5 years? Can you imagine buying a car that the dealer couldn't repair after 5 years. Am I misunderstanding, something? To me, This business model might be good for sales but I don't get it? |
Where did I say we don't support it? We support it to the best extent we can. But the old machines have VGA instead of HDMI, different sound systems that aren't made any more, projectors that aren't made anymore... they don't have limit switches on the struts; they use different motor and amp wiring; the servo interface board doesn't have anti-estop-weld detection. The steering wheel controls use a completely different wiring system - a different interface board and straight-through USB with a breakout box rather than USB-over-cat5. Because of that, the audio and e-stop wiring routes through the box differently.
In fact, we're going to have to drop support for our current steering systems soon. Why? We were required due to patent restrictions to buy our steering controllers from Immersion corporation. We had to buy boards for $500 that had the same spec as the ones in $100 consumer wheels. If we hadn't, they would have sued us. Licencing their IP is impossible, as they demand $25,000 up front and 10% of gross revenue; they don't care that the wheel is a tiny component of the simulator. In their view it's one 'controller' so they should get $4,000 per unit. And in the end, it became essentially impossible to even talk to them, since it's a waste of their time to deal with anyone doing volumes under 10k units per year.
They told us last year that they weren't making the boards any more, they had ten (or so) left we could buy, and don't let the door hit us on the ass on the way out. So we're going to be forced by circumstance to roll our own, or to repurpose existing consumer gear, which by definition won't be compatible with the reference designs. We stocked as many backup boards as we can, but once we run out, we're screwed. Customers will have to switch to the new stuff. Would you like to tell me how do do this differently?... Maybe you have some insight from your extensive experience in the game controller development arena that you'd like to impart.
The old machines use different motor wiring - the manufacturer changed setups and we now use custom pre-built harnesses that by nature differ from the old ones, but are far more reliable due to the volume assembly and error checking the motor manufacturer has access to.
On the software side, the re-zero code in the control software relies on limit switches to detect the strut hard-stops and prevent overtorque, while the early code uses a different (and inferior) method which cuts servo torque to just above 'float' level and does a controlled drop. Reconciling this in the software is difficult because it interacts with parallel routines that detect error limit overruns on the servos and faults out. The old machines used different servo tuning and different methods for applying filtering; new software running old motion profiles will act wrong. We've also added code running on the servo system itself, that checks setups and confirms correct operation with the PC-side software; this code checks for inputs like the e-stop weld board which old machines don't have.
There are good reasons for all of these changes: Customer demands for more features, the implementation of features that we wanted but didn't have time to do when we were launching the business, additions so the hardware passes CE and TUV regulations, alterations to three-axis machines and their software to allow interop with newly-developed four-axis systems.
I've written the software to switch out for old hardware versions as much as I can, but we don't (and can't possibly) have machines in-house of hardware/electronics for each major rev, and that makes it very difficult to test how new features will interact with old hardware.
I am THE programmer. My dad is THE engineer. He designs all the hardware, all the electronics, lays out the boards, does component-level troubleshooting, does the FEA and materials selection, vibration analysis, and custom engineering when required. I have designed 100% and implemented 90% of the code that runs these machines. I take the product photos, I build the web site, I do the sales and 75% of post-sales support, I travel to do installs, I write the ad copy, I design custom cars and tracks for clients, including 3D work, texturing, and audio. I consult with customers on branding, rider experience, difficulty and ride time management. We have neither the time nor the resources to stock parts, be able to make sheet metal for, and rewrite software for the first revs of the machines.
At the moment, we're redoing an entire electronics tray for a customer in Switzerland. They got one of the first machines we built, but now have a motor issue. We've run through our supply of old motors. We can't make new ones for any reasonable price. So, we're bringing the entire electronics system up to spec. They've got to pay for our time to do it, but we're not making any profit from it; that's not the way we do business.
Do you get it now?
You have no idea what technical issues there are. You have no idea what business issues there are. There's a 99% chance you've never even come close to risking everything you own to create something entirely new and bring it to market with no external investment.
Yet you still feel qualified to tell me that I make crap, and assume I tell my customers to piss off? That's pretty f*cking rich. Come back when you've experienced what I have, risked what I have, and built what I have - and then tell me how easy it is to live up to your own lofty standards.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:58 am Post subject: |
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I understand your frustration and post completely Peri, but... if technology slowed down for a bit so that manufacturers you rely on wouldn't discontinue product as quickly, wouldn't that put you.. and them... in a better place? I know diddley about motion simulators, but does HDMI vs VGA really make a big difference to your product? If the VGA card/driver/display were available for another 5 years, wouldn't that make your life easier, as a small company not to have to implement changes rapidly? I'm sure that eats up R&D time spent better elsewhere.
Again, it's the trickle down effect. Slow progress down, have manufacturers release stuff that's properly Beta tested, etc.
We went from 720p to 1080p to 1080p3D in about 5 years. What's next? SmelloVision?
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Jeremy112
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2649
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | We went from 720p to 1080p to 1080p3D in about 5 years. What's next? SmelloVision? |
Hopefully Holographics!! screw smellovision! 
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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FIne then! I think I'll downscale both my projectors to 720p, just to buck the system.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | I understand your frustration and post completely Peri, but... if technology slowed down for a bit so that manufacturers you rely on wouldn't discontinue product as quickly, wouldn't that put you.. and them... in a better place? I know diddley about motion simulators, but does HDMI vs VGA really make a big difference to your product? If the VGA card/driver/display were available for another 5 years, wouldn't that make your life easier, as a small company not to have to implement changes rapidly? I'm sure that eats up R&D time spent better elsewhere. |
It eats up R&D time, but not necessarily spent better elsewhere. OK, projector and monitor form factor changes are a real pain, and using industrial stuff would cost five times as much and be terrible. So that's bad.
But, for instance, HDMI vs. VGA makes a HUGE difference. Long VGA runs were problematic; extenders were unreliable.
The only reason we used VGA in the early days was because the projectors were only 960x540 - and there's another plus point to rapid development: In 2005, people had monitors doing 1600x1200 or 1440x900... but affordable projectors topped out at 1024x768. And we have a big field of view. Screen resolution was a big negative for us. A couple of years later, 720p projectors got cheap enough to be an option; then they were standard. About six months after that 1080p was standard when it hit the $1k mark. That's made a big difference to our product's attractiveness.
The price drop in LCD monitors has been similar. Around 2008, we started doing triple-LCDs - and this gets back to the VGA thing. At the time, the only practical way to do triple head was with this Matrox box. It only did VGA. It was resolution-limited so we couldn't use the native res of the LCDs. But customers REALLY REALLY wanted triple-LCD - it rejects ambient light and 'looks cool'.
So, we had to stay with VGA.
In addition, the Matrox box was HORRIBLE. Hell to set up, unreliable, finicky to detect monitors. The same went for the extenders we used to boost the signal. It cost us a ton of money and time.
The new ATI cards that do triple output natively are a godsend. Three HDMIs, straight through, and a small booster at one end. Done. Easy config, no flakiness, full resolution. It makes a huge difference to the appearance of our product.
And without commensurate computer advances, we'd be severely limited as well. Take a look at this:
That's a track (road, really) I developed for a customer of ours last fall. Without the ability to throw huge amounts of computer power at the problem, I'd never have been able to build something with that quality level on my own. But because I can inexpensively put together a computer with ten times the power of an xBox 360, I can approach that level of graphical quality with far cruder (and faster) techniques. That's essential.
And that doesn't even include new simulation software, better servo controls, wireless HDMI for setup monitors, and on and on and on. Fast, cheap tech development essentially made my whole business possible.
In your world of long-lived, expensive products, my business wouldn't even exist. And the guys we hire to paint our sheet metal, supply our monitors, host our web site, machine our components, print our boards, and a million other things wouldn't have jobs either. And they definitely wouldn't be able to afford that expensive TV then.
(Oh, and one other thing - my business also paid for the G70 that needed the neck card that you sold to my friend to give to me for my birthday. You're reaping the benefits of the terrible short-life digital projectors yourself. You just don't realize it.)
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. I'm absolutely floored by your VGA not liking long distance issues. I've run RGBHV lines up to 160' with minimal losses a number of times.
As for the lifespan of simulators, I saw a few at Camp Pendleton that were 20ish years old. Sure, they weren't anything close to the Bell helicopter one that I flew using 7 Barco 909s as projectors, but the point is, they are still there, and they still use them for the complete rookies.
Anyways, I have no idea about your business as I said before, so I won't comment further, but I'll stick strongly to my comments about consumer electronics as overstated by me above.
BTW it looks like many cars in your pix above crossed the double yellow line. Where's the virtual cops when you need them?
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. I'm absolutely floored by your VGA not liking long distance issues. I've run RGBHV lines up to 160' with minimal losses a number of times. |
Our environments aren't the same. We have multiple interconnects, by necessity - more with the VGA stuff. And we couldn't run superfat cables due to space and flex limitations.
| Quote: |
As for the lifespan of simulators, I saw a few at Camp Pendleton that were 20ish years old. Sure, they weren't anything close to the Bell helicopter one that I flew using 7 Barco 909s as projectors, but the point is, they are still there, and they still use them for the complete rookies. |
Yes, and they cost $20,000,000. You give me five hundred times as much money and I'll make a simulator that lasts twice as long, too. And we have no indication that our machines -won't- last 20 years - they've only been around for five. One machine is still going, AFAIK, which was hauled around to NASCAR races and kept in 100 degree heat, dust, and was actually *RAINED ON*.
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Anyways, I have no idea about your business as I said before, so I won't comment further, but I'll stick strongly to my comments about consumer electronics as overstated by me above. |
BTW it looks like many cars in your pix above crossed the double yellow line. Where's the virtual cops when you need them? [/quote]
Heh. The simulation engine automatically calculates the racing line and overlays it - that's why it's so choppy. That got pulled out before anything shipped.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, Peri. The amount of work you do and specialized knowledge you have just floors me. And that track -- wow. The attention to detail is amazing, from tire marks on the road to grass and distant scenery. How long does it take you to create something like that?? I assume you have pretty high-level tools (e.g. the simulation engine) to do it, but still...
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