CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[perisoft]

[Spanky Ham]

I see both sides of the issue. I would like to point out that even though things were built better in the 80's there wasn't much of anything new coming out. We went from black and white to color to DVD and then finally HD. The difference is CRT was around for all of that and most of the performance and issues had already been known and solved. As digital and flat panel tech matures even more then there will be far less issues than today.


Curt,
Of course, you could resurrect the Curtis Mathis name.

[draganm]

[benareeno]

these days tv's advance every year...as do projectors. I can get an amazing lcd projector for 1300...chances are, when it breaks, I would want the newer technology anyhow. 7-8 years?? Give me a break. Who would want to pay more for a projector these days, when the extra money you would pay today, would likely buy you a whole new projector in 3 years? And the new projector would be even better than the current one.

That being said, I love my 34" fine pitch Sony...it is the best picture bar none. Better than any projector to boot!

[perisoft]

[km987654]

[BradTheAggie]

Here is the issue to me:

When I graduated from college in 1982, I bought my parents a TV set for their bedroom. It wasn't a high end set, but I reasonably good TV (I think I bought it from Sears).

They still have it, and it still works. It's now 28 years old. The CRT wore out and was replaced around 10 years ago (when it was around 20 years old), and it keeps on ticking. they don't care if a newer, better imaging device is coming out on the market every 5 years; they want to just buy a reasonably priced TV and have it work for a LONG time without breaking. The argument "why spend $1500 for a tv that lasts 15 years when you can buy the latest, greatest TV for $500, use it for 5 years, and when it breaks, buy another better one" does not work for your average joe. Average joe wants to spend $500 on a TV that lasts for 20+ years, not keep replacing them when they break.

My Mitsu RPTV is around 13 years old, and keeps on ticking. I did have to get it repaired around 7 years ago (convergence IC failure is a known problem with these sets), but once that is repaired, these sets will run fine for a very long time.

I don't care about the latest, greatest either. I am perfectly happy taking a snapshot of the current state of the art, buy a reasonably priced product that embodies that technology, then dammit, I want it to just WORK!!!

[dturco]

[stefuel]

Like the computer industry, the rest of the consumer electronics industry is advancing so fast that why spend mega bucks for something that will be out dated before the new smell wares off. When I ordered my last PC to be custom built, it was the absolute top of the line everything. It was surpassed in a month. The 42" 1080P flatscreen I bought less than a year ago is not 3-D compatable.

[benareeno]

my dad bought a 20" tv in 1983 for about 1100 dollars...adjust for inflation that would be a high number...likely around 2000 dollars. Would your parents want to spend 2000 on a tv just so it lasts longer?

[Curt Palme]

Peri, I think Dragan addressed the points you complained about in my post.

First off, I think in general, we here are NOT the average consumer, or 'sheeple' as Wan likes to say. I've posted before about the two POS pressure washers I bought out of ignorance, then spent the $1K for a super deluxe unit that will undoubtedly last me the rest of my life.

I think electronics should be treated the same way, ergo my car example above. I don't believe that people come out ahead buying 3-4 $400 TVs instead of one that is $1000, but lasts 10-15 years. As with the Porsche example, if you can't afford a $1000 TV, then yes, you should do without. That's the way it was from the 50s to about the 80s, then it all went to crap IMHO.

I simply don't believe that electronics should be cranked out the way it is today. Surely, after 50+ years of PC boards being made, manufacturers could figure out a way to solder/hold a chip onto a board so that the joints don't fail within 3-4 years? C'mon, give me a break!

With the advent of the internet, it's all about price. I see this with the used flat screens I sell on the local Craigslist. I've sold some truly HORRIBLE no name brand TVs for $250 for a 40" LCD. The video processing is something that even a newbie here could see was completely awful. Yet, I sold three of those POS LCDs for $250, but the decent 720p $350 Toshiba 42" didn't get any inquiries.

Down the road, I could fix the Toshiba, I don't think I could repair the no name brands again.

Another example: I'm writing this post on a 7 year old Dell 4300. 3.2 gig speed, Pentium 4, 1 gig RAM, 250 gig hard drive. Hardly state of the art, but I paid $1600 for it, and everything, including the wireless keyboard and mouse is original, save for the hard drive that died once due to a bad virus. It was at the 4 year mark, so I got it replaced 'just in case'. It's hardly a state of the art computer, but since my computing needs haven't changed in 10 years, I'll keep running it.

I'd say that most people's electronics needs haven't really changed in a long time. I still run a 5.1 surround system. Yes, I'd like HDMI switching, but I can use an external switcher. I sure don't need 7.1 surround. I had a 60 gig MP3 player that lasted 6 years, and yes, I would have gladly paid $100-150 more than the $350 I paid new if the manufacturer had told me that I'd get twice the life out of the hard drive.

Bottom line for me is, make electronics that lasts, and make the high end stuff cost high end prices. Give me 2-3 X the current average lifespan of anything electronic, bump prices up 30-100% to cover the costs of making things more reliable. Make it worth it for electronics to be repaired, put repair shops back in business. Slow the rate of throwing away electronics by 50-80%, and hell, slow down the rate of advancement so that the end user is no longer the Beta tester. (Need I mention the complete abortion that DVI/HDMI was for what, 5 years? It's the busiest forum there is here, not because the Fury product is crap, but because the whole HDMI protocol sucked for the longest time)

Customer service will improve as manufacturers can give a decent warranty, sales outlets can train people so that the sellers actually know what they are talking about, and the consumer isn't obsessed with keeping up with the f*cking Jonses.

Yes, it's a pipe dream, and it may never happen, but in my little world, the planet would be a better place if that happened.

[Curt Palme]

Peri, I think Dragan addressed the points you complained about in my post.

First off, I think in general, we here are NOT the average consumer, or 'sheeple' as Wan likes to say. I've posted before about the two POS pressure washers I bought out of ignorance, then spent the $1K for a super deluxe unit that will undoubtedly last me the rest of my life.

I think electronics should be treated the same way, ergo my car example above. I don't believe that people come out ahead buying 3-4 $400 TVs instead of one that is $1000, but lasts 10-15 years. As with the Porsche example, if you can't afford a $1000 TV, then yes, you should do without. That's the way it was from the 50s to about the 80s, then it all went to crap IMHO.

I simply don't believe that electronics should be cranked out the way it is today. Surely, after 50+ years of PC boards being made, manufacturers could figure out a way to solder/hold a chip onto a board so that the joints don't fail within 3-4 years? C'mon, give me a break!

With the advent of the internet, it's all about price. I see this with the used flat screens I sell on the local Craigslist. I've sold some truly HORRIBLE no name brand TVs for $250 for a 40" LCD. The video processing is something that even a newbie here could see was completely awful. Yet, I sold three of those POS LCDs for $250, but the decent 720p $350 Toshiba 42" didn't get any inquiries.

Down the road, I could fix the Toshiba, I don't think I could repair the no name brands again.

Another example: I'm writing this post on a 7 year old Dell 4300. 3.2 gig speed, Pentium 4, 1 gig RAM, 250 gig hard drive. Hardly state of the art, but I paid $1600 for it, and everything, including the wireless keyboard and mouse is original, save for the hard drive that died once due to a bad virus. It was at the 4 year mark, so I got it replaced 'just in case'. It's hardly a state of the art computer, but since my computing needs haven't changed in 10 years, I'll keep running it.

I'd say that most people's electronics needs haven't really changed in a long time. I still run a 5.1 surround system. Yes, I'd like HDMI switching, but I can use an external switcher. I sure don't need 7.1 surround. I had a 60 gig MP3 player that lasted 6 years, and yes, I would have gladly paid $100-150 more than the $350 I paid new if the manufacturer had told me that I'd get twice the life out of the hard drive.

Bottom line for me is, make electronics that lasts, and make the high end stuff cost high end prices. Give me 2-3 X the current average lifespan of anything electronic, bump prices up 30-100% to cover the costs of making things more reliable. Make it worth it for electronics to be repaired, put repair shops back in business. Slow the rate of throwing away electronics by 50-80%, and hell, slow down the rate of advancement so that the end user is no longer the Beta tester. (Need I mention the complete abortion that DVI/HDMI was for what, 5 years? It's the busiest forum there is here, not because the Fury product is crap, but because the whole HDMI protocol sucked for the longest time)

Customer service will improve as manufacturers can give a decent warranty, sales outlets can train people so that the sellers actually know what they are talking about, and the consumer isn't obsessed with keeping up with the f*cking Jonses.

Yes, it's a pipe dream, and it may never happen, but in my little world, the planet would be a better place if that happened.

[perisoft]

[perisoft]

[AnalogRocks]

[AnalogRocks]

[Curt Palme]

As a PS when many people have come over to buy my used stuff.. I explain to them that most electronics breaks due to low quality parts as mentioned in the first post article.. poor quality parts made in China. I replace said power supply caps with decent caps from Japan, thereby extending the life span of the stuff that supposedly has reached it's 'end of life cycle" (another term coined in the last 10 years methinks!)

So... with the say 50% of electronics that I repair by putting in better parts.. why not add $35 to the price of the POS sold originally to double the life? Heck, add 50% of the retail price for double the life. Given a choice, I'd buy the longer lasting unit. If Ben and Peri opt out for the cheaper unit, fine, have at it, but to me you're part of the environmental problem, not the solution.

I still say that the vast majority of consumers could go replacing electronics every 10 years rather than every 4-5 years and be perfectly happy. Heck, say you want to upgrade every 3 years. Your used WORKING unit will be worth more since it's expected to last another 4-5 years if it were built better. so you can sell it on CL or ebay or trade it in. It ends up being a win-win.

Just my $.02.

[Curt Palme]

As a PS when many people have come over to buy my used stuff.. I explain to them that most electronics breaks due to low quality parts as mentioned in the first post article.. poor quality parts made in China. I replace said power supply caps with decent caps from Japan, thereby extending the life span of the stuff that supposedly has reached it's 'end of life cycle" (another term coined in the last 10 years methinks!)

So... with the say 50% of electronics that I repair by putting in better parts.. why not add $35 to the price of the POS sold originally to double the life? Heck, add 50% of the retail price for double the life. Given a choice, I'd buy the longer lasting unit. If Ben and Peri opt out for the cheaper unit, fine, have at it, but to me you're part of the environmental problem, not the solution.

I still say that the vast majority of consumers could go replacing electronics every 10 years rather than every 4-5 years and be perfectly happy. Heck, say you want to upgrade every 3 years. Your used WORKING unit will be worth more since it's expected to last another 4-5 years if it were built better. so you can sell it on CL or ebay or trade it in. It ends up being a win-win.

Just my $.02.

[Curt Palme]

[Curt Palme]

[perisoft]

[perisoft]

[Curt Palme]

You're both way exaggerating now. Thing is though, I was watching 20" SDTVs in the 3 motels I stayed at last week, and they looked a helluva lot better than the Sony 40" HDTV flat screen with the bad light engine.

I'll still stick with my proposal of 25-50% increase in the average retail price of electronics for twice the lifespan. The world doesn't need a $24.95 DVD player that lasts 6 months. (yes, I've bought a couple of those to see if they lasted) Make the minimum a $49 DVD player that lasts 2 years.

[Curt Palme]

You're both way exaggerating now. Thing is though, I was watching 20" SDTVs in the 3 motels I stayed at last week, and they looked a helluva lot better than the Sony 40" HDTV flat screen with the bad light engine.

I'll still stick with my proposal of 25-50% increase in the average retail price of electronics for twice the lifespan. The world doesn't need a $24.95 DVD player that lasts 6 months. (yes, I've bought a couple of those to see if they lasted) Make the minimum a $49 DVD player that lasts 2 years.

[AnalogRocks]

[AnalogRocks]