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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:03 am Post subject: G-90 and the unobtainable IC |
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Does anyone have the internal skeeeeeeeematic of this mystery chip?
I can't help but wonder if another solution can be obtained. After all, what is a "IC"? It is a integrated circuit, AKA a circuit board on a chip. So what would be so hard about taking that information and designing a "daughter board" to take it's place? If you know what's in the IC and how it's wired, what's the big deal?
I realize it's only a friggin G-90 but, DO I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION NOW? 
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A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:23 am Post subject: |
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The big deal or should I say the bigger deal is the embedded logic. Even if you had the exact same chip and it was blank, it is still worthless without the firmware.
I'm actually almost ready to attempt a read of this chip. Just have a few more projects to finish first.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:33 am Post subject: |
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Mac, did you ever get that defective one I mailed to you?
I really haven't seen that many of these IC's go bad anyway. I am sure that if you are one of the unlucky folks who have owned one you would disagree, but the problem is extremely overblown. I have fixed a lot of YA boards and only one time was it IC421, and that was when we already knew it was IC421, which was why the board was sent to me in the first place; to swap IC421's.
I still think finding an answer is a fun tech puzzle though and that alone makes it work a shot.
craigr
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betel
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 448
Location: Maryville, Tennessee (Just South of Knoxville)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:37 am Post subject: |
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Mac, is that G90 chassis you got from me doing you any good?
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tse
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 1014
Location: Sweatbucket, Fl.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Things took a big step backwards when these programmable chips came out. It let the engineers say "put it out there, we'll fix any problems with a firmware upgrade". When the computer guys started being more important than the analog engineers it was the end of the CRT projector. Did any great strides in performance come along after that? Proprietory parts sure hurried the obsolecence along.
Scott
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| tse wrote: | Things took a big step backwards when these programmable chips came out. It let the engineers say "put it out there, we'll fix any problems with a firmware upgrade". When the computer guys started being more important than the analog engineers it was the end of the CRT projector. Did any great strides in performance come along after that? Proprietory parts sure hurried the obsolecence along.
Scott |
What really stinks as well on the G90 is that so few were produced and it went largely unsupported by Sony. Thankfully it has been largely a very reliable machine with very few serious problems. On the other hand, the G70 had many units built and received actual tech bulletins from Sony for such things as a streaking fix... which is what the G90 still really needs.
I fixed a YA board today and the Dallas had serial number 989. That is the highest serial number I have seen. Before this one I think the highest number I had seen was around 800. A thousand units is not much for so much R&D Sony put in on this projector.
craigr
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:34 am Post subject: |
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I still think the hardware could be duplicated in a full size board. Now if someone can retrieve the firmware from a existing chip... 
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | Mac, did you ever get that defective one I mailed to you?
I really haven't seen that many of these IC's go bad anyway. I am sure that if you are one of the unlucky folks who have owned one you would disagree, but the problem is extremely overblown. I have fixed a lot of YA boards and only one time was it IC421, and that was when we already knew it was IC421, which was why the board was sent to me in the first place; to swap IC421's.
I still think finding an answer is a fun tech puzzle though and that alone makes it work a shot.
craigr |
Craig, this is where I left off with the ic you sent me. I haven't attempted a read yet which is where I will be picking back up. Still dont know if it will read or not. I have almost always been able to get a read on the 100's of various other chips I've tried on but I must admit I'm not real confident on this one. Hopefully in a couple more weeks I can get back to it.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| betel wrote: | | Mac, is that G90 chassis you got from me doing you any good? |
Yes it is my current test bed. I was able to acquire the rest of the parts needed to get it functional again. Had it fired up last week to be sure it survived the traveling, lol.
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DB Cooper
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 265
Location: Ambler, Lancaster PA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone know if Henry Foo is still sitting on those G-90's he has...had? He did have a bunch of them!
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: |
Craig, this is where I left off with the ic you sent me. I haven't attempted a read yet which is where I will be picking back up. Still dont know if it will read or not. I have almost always been able to get a read on the 100's of various other chips I've tried on but I must admit I'm not real confident on this one. Hopefully in a couple more weeks I can get back to it. |
Trouble still remains even if you get a read of that defective chip... cause it will be hard to convince someone with a good IC421 to let us take it off the board just to do a read on it and then put it back. Lots can go wrong with all those tiny little pins during removal and installation.
But then again, the software might not be what's bad on the IC, it could be the hardware. But my guess is a software issue in the write once memory. And that beings said calling the software software is a little strange when it is hard written.
craigr
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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...but one thing at a time...
craigr
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JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
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Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| DB Cooper wrote: | | Does anyone know if Henry Foo is still sitting on those G-90's he has...had? He did have a bunch of them! |
Last I heard was yes. I bet most of their Dallas chips have taken a dump by now as well. So they are probably nonoperational out of the box. It wouldn't be hard to make up new Dallas chips though and even put the serial numbers back into them.
craigr
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Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
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OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
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Phone: 865-405-6892
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | Mac, did you ever get that defective one I mailed to you?
I really haven't seen that many of these IC's go bad anyway. I am sure that if you are one of the unlucky folks who have owned one you would disagree, but the problem is extremely overblown. I have fixed a lot of YA boards and only one time was it IC421, and that was when we already knew it was IC421, which was why the board was sent to me in the first place; to swap IC421's.
I still think finding an answer is a fun tech puzzle though and that alone makes it work a shot.
craigr |
Craig, this is where I left off with the ic you sent me. I haven't attempted a read yet which is where I will be picking back up. Still dont know if it will read or not. I have almost always been able to get a read on the 100's of various other chips I've tried on but I must admit I'm not real confident on this one. Hopefully in a couple more weeks I can get back to it. |
The manufacturer of these chips, or a chip the same case style should have an evaluation test board available. It's no more than a small board with the chips footprint on it that also has where you can make connections to it.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: |
The manufacturer of these chips, or a chip the same case style should have an evaluation test board available. It's no more than a small board with the chips footprint on it that also has where you can make connections to it. |
I don't think we ever even got to the bottom of who manufactured this chip. One of the Japanese data sheets I have says LSI, but that might also mean Large Scale Integration.
craigr
_________________
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Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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Phone: 865-405-6892
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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The chip would not have to be removed from the board to do a read or write if a either is possible. I did this one like this because the chip was already off.
I'm also not convinced this chip is a OTP (one time programmable). JTAG chips usually are not.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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That chip has a standard industry footprint, which is a common size and pin layout that is also shared by most chip manufacturers.
The evaluation boards should always be used when trying to operate these chips outside of it's designed PC board. They are extremely sensitive to static damage. And that's why it's best to not operate it away from the board.
Even the video chips that I do my R/D with, I get the evaluation board or spit out a mini board design to place it on before doing anything to it.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | That chip has a standard industry footprint, which is a common size and pin layout that is also shared by most chip manufacturers.
The evaluation boards should always be used when trying to operate these chips outside of it's designed PC board. They are extremely sensitive to static damage. And that's why it's best to not operate it away from the board.
Even the video chips that I do my R/D with, I get the evaluation board or spit out a mini board design to place it on before doing anything to it. |
Ah..Hmmmmmmmmm.
Do I really have to explain why I did it this way?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | That chip has a standard industry footprint, which is a common size and pin layout that is also shared by most chip manufacturers.
The evaluation boards should always be used when trying to operate these chips outside of it's designed PC board. They are extremely sensitive to static damage. And that's why it's best to not operate it away from the board.
Even the video chips that I do my R/D with, I get the evaluation board or spit out a mini board design to place it on before doing anything to it. |
Ah..Hmmmmmmmmm.
Do I really have to explain why I did it this way? |
no!
I'm sure you have good reason, and I would probably agree.
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betel
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 448
Location: Maryville, Tennessee (Just South of Knoxville)
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | betel wrote: | | Mac, is that G90 chassis you got from me doing you any good? |
Yes it is my current test bed. I was able to acquire the rest of the parts needed to get it functional again. Had it fired up last week to be sure it survived the traveling, lol. |
Glad to hear you are using it. Still amazed how easily it fit into the trunk of your car.
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