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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| 1031 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Someone still needs to explain to me how the VIDEO portion of the signal affects focusing. Smearing, bandwidth, I understand that, but I don't understand now neck board mods can affect focusing at high contrast...???? |
My theory goes..
Marquee has very wideband VNB´s so those are capable to amplify signals out of actuall signal band, so all "noise" feedet to vnb´s are amplified and therefor actuall beam current is higher. Higher beamcurrent-> more bloom.
So reducing "noise" that is coming from Vim and another sources (supply lines, digital lines etc..) are lowering that "noise" part from signal and therefor reducing actuall beam current-> less blooming. |
ALright, I've read this a few times and either I'm miss understanding what your saying or something is wrong. And not sure what Mike is agreeing to in the next post.
Marquee neckboards amplify the signal, yes but so does the G90 and possibly even more. I dont know the amplification factor of the Marquee but I do know the G90s.
Now a agree 100% that cleaning up the noise on the cathode and G1 signals will eliminate the blooming problem and I could explain this technically but this does not change the beam current.
Also, who name the KH pin grid 3? I also saw a post by zGman that him and Terry broke open a tube with the KH pinout and said the leed whet to a device before grid 1 I believe. Is this correct?
I'm just reading this stuff that some of you guys have been discussing for a few years now. Oh, and KH has a meaning but I am looking for some more info to verify some stuff.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | I'll agree with the brightness comments, but generally most HT guys are not pushing the limit here anyways, right? Brightness and contrast are between 50 and 60.
I've also seen enough Barco 1209s in planetarium installations where brightness is usually about 10, and contrast is about 85-90, and there are no blooming issues with LUGs there either. Focus on them is bang on, zero blooming.
Anyways, enough theories, time to put them into action.  |
I'm no Barco expert, but I think the 909's and the like perform similarly to the G90 with respect to white level output in LUG tubes.
Also, the thing about the planetarium... don't forget that when you reduce black level (brightness) that the white level (contrast) will drop as well. Running with a brightness at 50 and a contrast at 85-90 will result in a much higher white level than running with brightness at 10 and contrast at 85-90. This will obviously impact blooming.
I'm supposed to go install Mikes boards tomorrow, but I still may not be up to it. I spoke to the doctor last Friday and he said it would be about another week before I even start to feel better. Not to derail the thread, but I have been in bad pain for nearly three months now and in terrible shape for three weeks. This is getting old and I am really ready to get back to work! As soon as I can work again, this project will be my first to take on.
craigr
_________________
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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this has nothing to do with the thread but i wish you a quick recovery.
milk and honey is what i always drink wheni am ill.
acacia honey is very mild.
_________________
1 answer always poses multiple questions.
marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: |
Also, who name the KH pin grid 3? I also saw a post by zGman that him and Terry broke open a tube with the KH pinout and said the leed whet to a device before grid 1 I believe. Is this correct?
I'm just reading this stuff that some of you guys have been discussing for a few years now. Oh, and KH has a meaning but I am looking for some more info to verify some stuff. |
I remember that thread and I thought I knew where it was on AVS. I looked, but I can't find the thread.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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tse
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 1014
Location: Sweatbucket, Fl.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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The KH pin lowers the cathode to all other tube elements capacitance when grounded through a 1M ohm resistor. That is what is in the spec sheet.
Scott
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"Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we would soon want bread."
Thomas Jefferson
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| tse wrote: | The KH pin lowers the cathode to all other tube elements capacitance when grounded through a 1M ohm resistor. That is what is in the spec sheet.
Scott |
This makes a little more sense as the electronic abbreviation of KH is for cathode heater. Grid 3 for KH didn't make sense.
Do you have a copy of that spec sheet? I'd like to read it. I can't see the reason of the KH device being put there just for the capacitance reason but can see it required to be buffer grounded and a spark gap if its not being used as intended.
And I can't see where it would affect focus unless it was tied to G1.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Craig, hope your feeling better soon. Not feeling well for long periods of time just sucks. Believe me, I know.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | 1031 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Someone still needs to explain to me how the VIDEO portion of the signal affects focusing. Smearing, bandwidth, I understand that, but I don't understand now neck board mods can affect focusing at high contrast...???? |
My theory goes..
Marquee has very wideband VNB´s so those are capable to amplify signals out of actuall signal band, so all "noise" feedet to vnb´s are amplified and therefor actuall beam current is higher. Higher beamcurrent-> more bloom.
So reducing "noise" that is coming from Vim and another sources (supply lines, digital lines etc..) are lowering that "noise" part from signal and therefor reducing actuall beam current-> less blooming. |
ALright, I've read this a few times and either I'm miss understanding what your saying or something is wrong. And not sure what Mike is agreeing to in the next post.
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Then it's obvious that you're misunderstanding something here. How could it be wrong when it's been proven?
Simply because it has been confirmed on my setup, therefore who better could better connect the two?
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | 1031 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Someone still needs to explain to me how the VIDEO portion of the signal affects focusing. Smearing, bandwidth, I understand that, but I don't understand now neck board mods can affect focusing at high contrast...???? |
My theory goes..
Marquee has very wideband VNB´s so those are capable to amplify signals out of actuall signal band, so all "noise" feedet to vnb´s are amplified and therefor actuall beam current is higher. Higher beamcurrent-> more bloom.
So reducing "noise" that is coming from Vim and another sources (supply lines, digital lines etc..) are lowering that "noise" part from signal and therefor reducing actuall beam current-> less blooming. |
ALright, I've read this a few times and either I'm miss understanding what your saying or something is wrong. And not sure what Mike is agreeing to in the next post.
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Then it's obvious that you're misunderstanding something here. How could it be wrong when it's been proven?
Simply because it has been confirmed on my setup, therefore who better could better connect the two? |
So your saying that your mod is reducing beam current? I dont think so. I'm not disputing that your work on cleaning up the signal to cathode and G1 has improved focus and blooming. And I supported this when you first announced it. And it can be easily technically explainable.The question was what exactly is happening when you clean up that signal. Cant be beam current, right?
You know what, forget I said anything. I should of learned from the last time to just let things be said without any comment to explain why things result in the way they do, which is what Curt was asking originally.
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tse
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 1014
Location: Sweatbucket, Fl.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | tse wrote: | The KH pin lowers the cathode to all other tube elements capacitance when grounded through a 1M ohm resistor. That is what is in the spec sheet.
Scott |
This makes a little more sense as the electronic abbreviation of KH is for cathode heater. Grid 3 for KH didn't make sense.
Do you have a copy of that spec sheet? I'd like to read it. I can't see the reason of the KH device being put there just for the capacitance reason but can see it required to be buffer grounded and a spark gap if its not being used as intended.
And I can't see where it would affect focus unless it was tied to G1. |
I'll have to post it tomorrow. The spec sheet is in Engrish so some things aren't perfectly clear.
Scott
_________________
"Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we would soon want bread."
Thomas Jefferson
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: |
So your saying that your mod is reducing beam current? I dont think so. I'm not disputing that your work on cleaning up the signal to cathode and G1 has improved focus and blooming. And I supported this when you first announced it. And it can be easily technically explainable.The question was what exactly is happening when you clean up that signal. Cant be beam current, right?
You know what, forget I said anything. I should of learned from the last time to just let things be said without any comment to explain why things result in the way they do, which is what Curt was asking originally. |
Dude, I'll not even waste my time getting into technical debate over this. To me it would be like trying to explain why water is wet.
All I'm saying is what is. And the fact that it's been made possible, is all that matters.
Now if you would have presented a more reasonable question; like how was it done? or what was done to make it happen, I think then it would make sense for me to respond.
But following you around in your theories about why and what's without the right inquiry is a complete waste of time.
So when someone says they have made something happen, the thing to do from there is ask how... you don't jump in with a bunch of theories to prove something that's been proven a fact to not be a fact.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: |
So your saying that your mod is reducing beam current? I dont think so. I'm not disputing that your work on cleaning up the signal to cathode and G1 has improved focus and blooming. And I supported this when you first announced it. And it can be easily technically explainable.The question was what exactly is happening when you clean up that signal. Cant be beam current, right?
You know what, forget I said anything. I should of learned from the last time to just let things be said without any comment to explain why things result in the way they do, which is what Curt was asking originally. |
Dude, I'll not even waste my time getting into technical debate over this. To me it would be like trying to explain why water is wet.
All I'm saying is what is. And the fact that it's been made possible, is all that matters.
Now if you would have presented a more reasonable question; like how was it done? or what was done to make it happen, I think then it would make sense for me to respond.
But following you around in your theories about why and what's without the right inquiry is a complete waste of time.
So when someone says they have made something happen, the thing to do from there is ask how... you don't jump in with a bunch of theories to prove something that's been proven a fact to not be a fact. |
Believe me they are not theories. Just answer my question then. Are you decreasing beam current? Of course if you dont know the answer I understand.
And actually Curt asked the original question so why didn't you answer him then.
And all you've really ever said was, I did something and now my projector doesn't bloom at full contrast. Thats not an explanation. So would you like to explain?
Oh, and just because....... never mind, I'm trying to restrain myself.
Sorry I wasted your time........ wait, I didn't ask.
Why would you ever think that anything I have to say is theory?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: |
Believe me they are not theories. Just answer my question then. Are you decreasing beam current? Of course if you dont know the answer I understand. |
If they are not theories, then you're right and I'm wrong. However, since it appears your theories do not apply here, then who would be wrong?
| Quote: | | And actually Curt asked the original question so why didn't you answer him then |
It was answered..
| Quote: | | And all you've really ever said was, I did something and now my projector doesn't bloom at full contrast. Thats not an explanation. So would you like to explain? |
No, not beyond what has already been explained.
| Quote: | | Oh, and just because....... never mind, I'm trying to restrain myself |
Good idea. since you can't support what you're saying with your theories... I can however 100% prove everything I've said here.
| Quote: | | Sorry I wasted your time........ wait, I didn't ask |
No problem. Disputing things that you can't fathom in your own mind seems to be an ongoing mission with you. So you'll only doing what's expected of you.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: |
Believe me they are not theories. Just answer my question then. Are you decreasing beam current? Of course if you dont know the answer I understand. |
If they are not theories, then you're right and I'm wrong. However, since it appears your theories do not apply here, then who would be wrong?
| Quote: | | And actually Curt asked the original question so why didn't you answer him then |
It was answered..
| Quote: | | And all you've really ever said was, I did something and now my projector doesn't bloom at full contrast. Thats not an explanation. So would you like to explain? |
No, not beyond what has already been explained.
| Quote: | | Oh, and just because....... never mind, I'm trying to restrain myself |
Good idea. since you can't support what you're saying with your theories... I can however 100% prove everything I've said here.
| Quote: | | Sorry I wasted your time........ wait, I didn't ask |
No problem. Disputing things that you can't fathom in your own mind seems to be an ongoing mission with you. So you'll only doing what's expected of you. |
Hahahahahahahahahahahha... Now this is a funny post.
And what did I expect, you still didn't answer my question. Not that I'm surprised.
Well I'm just not going to respond at all. I dont doubt that you improved what you say I just disagreed with what was posted as to what your mods are actually affecting. And if I remember correctly, your own response in the thread after your claim was "I'm not sure myself as to why it is fixing the problem" or something on that order. Its not word for word.
But I do have 1 other question. How many hours do you think you actually have invested in just mods, whether you succeeded or not and just on the marquee? This would be any and all types of mods.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: |
But I do have 1 other question. How many hours do you think you actually have invested in just mods, whether you succeeded or not and just on the marquee? This would be any and all types of mods. |
That's a hard question to answer, even If I were to take a guess. So the best answer would be: I have no idea..
What you should do is on your travels around the country, stop here. I guarantee you I'll blow your mind, especially with what I'm working on now. I know this is a big claim, but trust me on this..
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: |
But I do have 1 other question. How many hours do you think you actually have invested in just mods, whether you succeeded or not and just on the marquee? This would be any and all types of mods. |
That's a hard question to answer, even If I were to take a guess. So the best answer would be: I have no idea..
What you should do is on your travels around the country, stop here. I guarantee you I'll blow your mind, especially with what I'm working on now. I know this is a big claim, but trust me on this.. |
Mike. I dont know why you felt a need to attack me on this. I was only disputing a particular comment, not your achievements. And my dispute is valid whether you want to admit it or not. My knowledge on analog/digital and CRT tube function is way more then you know. I didn't attack you in any way.
I'm sure whatever your working on is great. You must enjoy what your doing to spend so many thousands of hours on this stuff.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: |
Mike. I dont know why you felt a need to attack me on this. I was only disputing a particular comment, not your achievements. And my dispute is valid whether you want to admit it or not. My knowledge on analog/digital and CRT tube function is way more then you know. I didn't attack you in any way.
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What would make you think you are more knowledgeable on analog and digital CRT than I am?
And why would you even post something like that... and how do you not find your comments like this as not being condescending?
And whenever someone responds to your comments like this, it's always an attack on you...
If my house caught on fire and I dialed 911 for a fire truck. If the fireman showed up throwing gas on my fire, would it put the fire out?
For instance, take how tse responded in this same thread here:
| tse wrote: | The KH pin lowers the cathode to all other tube elements capacitance when grounded through a 1M ohm resistor. That is what is in the spec sheet.
Scott |
Notice that he referred to what's in the "spec sheet"
Considering that tse is VDC's Chief engineer, who was also an engineer for Ampro and designed things for their CRT projectors. he's the guy who designed that new Neck board that VDC now makes which is really AWESOME. So I would say he would without a doubt have a good understanding of analog CRT...
But please take note of his humility when he post and how he post on these subjects. Somehow he never points out what he knows, nor does he ever indicate that he knows more than someone else. But since he's one that process both the knowledge and ability to properly use the knowledge, he does not have a problem with ANYONE ever challenging or attacking him on these forums.
So in a lot of what I've been doing over the years, I've either talked with him directly over the phone, or by email or PM. So even what I'm now working on, I've spoken to him over the phone about it. so whatever i don't know about CRT, there's always been someone on these forums who has been a big help in accomplishing what I have so far...
But still, what makes you think you know more about analog CRT than I do?
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: |
Mike. I dont know why you felt a need to attack me on this. I was only disputing a particular comment, not your achievements. And my dispute is valid whether you want to admit it or not. My knowledge on analog/digital and CRT tube function is way more then you know. I didn't attack you in any way.
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What would make you think you are more knowledgeable on analog and digital CRT than I am?
And why would you even post something like that... and how do you not find your comments like this as not being condescending?
And whenever someone responds to your comments like this, it's always an attack on you...
If my house caught on fire and I dialed 911 for a fire truck. If the fireman showed up throwing gas on my fire, would it put the fire out?
For instance, take how tse responded in this same thread here:
| tse wrote: | The KH pin lowers the cathode to all other tube elements capacitance when grounded through a 1M ohm resistor. That is what is in the spec sheet.
Scott |
Notice that he referred to what's in the "spec sheet"
Considering that tse is VDC's Chief engineer, who was also an engineer for Ampro and designed things for their CRT projectors. he's the guy who designed that new Neck board that VDC now makes which is really AWESOME. So I would say he would without a doubt have a good understanding of analog CRT...
But please take note of his humility when he post and how he post on these subjects. Somehow he never points out what he knows, nor does he ever indicate that he knows more than someone else. But since he's one that process both the knowledge and ability to properly use the knowledge, he does not have a problem with ANYONE ever challenging or attacking him on these forums.
So in a lot of what I've been doing over the years, I've either talked with him directly over the phone, or by email or PM. So even what I'm now working on, I've spoken to him over the phone about it. so whatever i don't know about CRT, there's always been someone on these forums who has been a big help in accomplishing what I have so far...
But still, what makes you think you know more about analog CRT than I do? |
My comment "more then you know" didn't refer to myself knowing more then you, it meant that I know more about this stuff then you think I do. You were the one telling me I didn't know what I was talking about. And I dont brag about what I know I only post to help others. Its only when I'm attacked about my knowledge that I have to comment on it. I really dont know whats up with you but since something seems odd with your posts I will refrain from comment.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: |
My comment "more then you know" didn't refer to myself knowing more then you, it meant that I know more about this stuff then you think I do. You were the one telling me I didn't know what I was talking about.[b] |
where did I ever challenge you on what you know?
| Quote: | | And I dont brag about what I know I only post to help others |
I'll leave this one alone..
| Quote: | | [b]Its only when I'm attacked about my knowledge that I have to comment on it |
Who and where was your knowledge attacked?
Curt asked a question (below) and this is your response:
| macgyver655 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Someone still needs to explain to me how the VIDEO portion of the signal affects focusing. Smearing, bandwidth, I understand that, but I don't understand now neck board mods can affect focusing at high contrast...???? |
Would you like the short explanation or the long one, lol? |
So somehow you had an answer to that question without even knowing the real answer to the question.
Now (below) you then started challenging me for the answer, or an answer that you would approve:
| macgyver655 wrote: | | Just answer my question then. Are you decreasing beam current? Of course if you dont know the answer I understand. |
[quote="macgyver655"] | Quote: | | And all you've really ever said was, I did something and now my projector doesn't bloom at full contrast. Thats not an explanation. So would you like to explain? |
| Quote: | And what did I expect, you still didn't answer my question. Not that I'm surprised.
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I done here...
Last edited by mp20748 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:26 am; edited 4 times in total
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:22 am Post subject: |
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Now that everyone is in such a good mood I tell you what I am going to do. I will take before and after photos of the SMTPE 1:1 burst before and after I install Mike's boards. This might not prove any questions on why it works, but it should show whether or not it works to us all.
I calibrated Mike's projector for proper D65 and after that I know I saw the projector running full 1080p 72Hz showing perfect 1:1 on the SMTPE at 100% contrast with 50 brightness. I am very curious to see if this repeats its self on my client's Madrigal 9500. At present, his Madrigal seriously attenuates 1080p 60Hz and is even worse on 72Hz of course.
Unfortunately I will not be able to do this tomorrow because I am still not physically up to working.
As far as why water is wet, I think it must be because it is also shiny in sunlight
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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