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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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So Mike, is your machine modded all over (like a combo of all of your offerings over the years), or is it just the Super VIM now in addition to the standard maintenance stuff?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Sparky015 wrote: | | So Mike, is your machine modded all over (like a combo of all of your offerings over the years), or is it just the Super VIM now in addition to the standard maintenance stuff? |
Actually, a lot of the maintenance stuff has not been done on this 9500. Only some of the recent things that I've been doing this year only. Most of the caps and stuff is still stock. I've gotten away from changing out a lot of caps, mainly because I've not found it really necessary. And only the two caps on the neck boards would effect the image, but that's only if they are weak or aged.
What's really making the difference is the neck boards and Barco 909 coils. And of course the setup of the coils and magnets is critical. The stig mod that I've done was also a great improvement.
You should come down one day and see it for yourself. Craig, being an expert with G90's and having experience also with Marquees, would never believe that a Marquee could put out that much clean light power. But he saw it for himself..
So come on down.
Tim Martin remembers when I did a demo for a former Electrohome Engineer who was in the area on business, he came by and I gave him a demo. He too was blown away. He said they tried various things over the years to get better light of a Marquee, but was never able to make it happen. he said they mostly focused on the HVPS. Never expecting to look where I did..
This is not something i would like to offer as a mod, or get into having projectors shipped to me to perform make it happen.
You have the VIM and 909 coils. You'll only need to get your neck boards done and follow some of my latest tweaks. From there it's all in the setup..
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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I need to find an excuse to make the trip! I would love to see the machine and your setup.
Interesting discussion. Scott, do your stock 2010 machines have this blooming issue when you ship them with LUGs? Is this something tested at the factory? I know the neck boards now are a bit higher bandwidth, but the VIM is relatively a stock 02P.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Someone still needs to explain to me how the VIDEO portion of the signal affects focusing. Smearing, bandwidth, I understand that, but I don't understand now neck board mods can affect focusing at high contrast...????
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | Someone still needs to explain to me how the VIDEO portion of the signal affects focusing. Smearing, bandwidth, I understand that, but I don't understand now neck board mods can affect focusing at high contrast...???? |
I hear you. And that is why I am so looking forward to trying Mike's VIM and VNB's in this client's Madrigal. I want to see the improvement from that alone just to verify. I'll probably try just the VIM first and then again with VIM and VNB's.
craigr
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Sweet, then we're all on the same page. I can't stand it around here when someone says 'I can't do XXX' and someone else says 'oh yes you can', and a shitestorm ensues.
Basically, I don't like being wrong.
Anyways, we'll figure it out. The LUG I was waiting for just showed up, as did the G90 focus yokes, so I'll be doin' some playin' this weekend..
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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I guess it wouldn't matter if all tubes were LUG's in the PJ. Then you can match contrast level and get better white balance, it seams the issues for people are that with a LUG as a replacement for an LCP the previous contrast levels cant be used. This in turn makes them feel like they are getting shafted with a bad tube when in reality it's just how that type of tube performs in that PJ.
So what am I trying to say? Don't expect a mixed tube Marquee PJ to have equal performance from the installed tubes.
Make sence?
 
Nashou
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zGman
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Well this is interesting - hopefully I can get a large batch of new 9" tubes mounted
and one of my Ultra's up and running in the next month or so and run some tests.
Also have 1292 focus coils, and someday hope to test MP's new stuff. I have both
tube types so maybe with some calibration help from Terry we can put some
results up....But today - yet another mold farm in and around an hvac duct
to clean up and repair - this stuff is driving me nuts....
(yeah I know - short trip...hohoho!)
G
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | Someone still needs to explain to me how the VIDEO portion of the signal affects focusing. Smearing, bandwidth, I understand that, but I don't understand now neck board mods can affect focusing at high contrast...???? |
Would you like the short explanation or the long one, lol?
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:32 am Post subject: |
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this thread is only on page 3, lets get the long version! I'm actually curious to know some good theory myself.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:57 am Post subject: |
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No, I don't buy that at all. Again, I've mixed and matched tubes in a Sony and Barco with ZERO issues. The Marquee simply (to me) doesn't like LUGs. I am DETERMINED to find out why.
Why can I mix and match in other brands of sets, get good contrast and an image at 90-100 contrast, and in a MArquee the LUGs look like a crap 7" ES focusing tube?
Something isn't right here, and I'm bound to find out what it is..
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1031
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | Someone still needs to explain to me how the VIDEO portion of the signal affects focusing. Smearing, bandwidth, I understand that, but I don't understand now neck board mods can affect focusing at high contrast...???? |
My theory goes..
Marquee has very wideband VNBīs so those are capable to amplify signals out of actuall signal band, so all "noise" feedet to vnbīs are amplified and therefor actuall beam current is higher. Higher beamcurrent-> more bloom.
So reducing "noise" that is coming from Vim and another sources (supply lines, digital lines etc..) are lowering that "noise" part from signal and therefor reducing actuall beam current-> less blooming.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| 1031 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Someone still needs to explain to me how the VIDEO portion of the signal affects focusing. Smearing, bandwidth, I understand that, but I don't understand now neck board mods can affect focusing at high contrast...???? |
My theory goes..
Marquee has very wideband VNBīs so those are capable to amplify signals out of actuall signal band, so all "noise" feedet to vnbīs are amplified and therefor actuall beam current is higher. Higher beamcurrent-> more bloom.
So reducing "noise" that is coming from Vim and another sources (supply lines, digital lines etc..) are lowering that "noise" part from signal and therefor reducing actuall beam current-> less blooming. |
Your theory is correct in my case!
I've also mentioned this several times in the past on this same discussion.
There's also a few external to the neck boards areas that could hinder this from happening. Because of these areas I will not make a claim that the neck boards alone will make this happen, nor will I claim that both neck board and VIM will make it happen. It can happen in some setups, but it depends on other things as well that may not support the VIM and neck boards in bringing out the best contrast levels.
Concerning LUGs in a Marquee.. I have no experience with them first hand. So I can't comment on anything that's been discussed here with these tubes in a Marquee. So I have no idea what would happen when they are used with my neck boards and VIM.
I do have a lot of experience with LUG's in Barco 909's and that's one of the main reasons they are not in my Marquee.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | I guess it wouldn't matter if all tubes were LUG's in the PJ. Then you can match contrast level and get better white balance, it seams the issues for people are that with a LUG as a replacement for an LCP the previous contrast levels cant be used. This in turn makes them feel like they are getting shafted with a bad tube when in reality it's just how that type of tube performs in that PJ.
So what am I trying to say? Don't expect a mixed tube Marquee PJ to have equal performance from the installed tubes.
Make sence?
Nashou |
Not really. I have a few clients now with a green only LUG tube in a 9500 with LCP's for red and blue. I have no trouble matching the red and blue to make proper D65. The final calibration just isn't as bright with an LUG tube as it is with all LCP tubes. This is because the red and blue contrast needs to be reduced.
Green contributes the most to sharpness so a green only LUG can really make a Marquee sharper without the expense of changing all three tubes.
I also have another client in Florida for whom I installed a blue only LUG in his 9500 while keeping the red and green LCP's. We did this because his blue LCP was worn out and Mike P had a blue LUG that he sold for a good price so it was cost effective for the client. No trouble with the gray scale on that machine either.
craigr
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | .......
I do have a lot of experience with LUG's in Barco 909's and that's one of the main reasons they are not in my Marquee. |
Interesting comment here Mike, I am curious because Terry mentioned the same thing on a thread over on AVS about LUG's .
He said he'd rather keep the LCP's in a Marquee. What did you see with the LUG's in the Barcos that you didn't like?
Now I think I need to break out the new VDC red LUG i have and see how it performs .
I agree with jarmo as well, clean up the noise everywhere int he marquee and tighter focus will help you relize the higher bandwidth of the marquee and any tube. Mike proved that with 1080p@72 on an 8 inch tube.
Athanasios
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | No, I don't buy that at all. Again, I've mixed and matched tubes in a Sony and Barco with ZERO issues. The Marquee simply (to me) doesn't like LUGs. I am DETERMINED to find out why.
Why can I mix and match in other brands of sets, get good contrast and an image at 90-100 contrast, and in a MArquee the LUGs look like a crap 7" ES focusing tube?
Something isn't right here, and I'm bound to find out what it is.. |
I don't think they look like crap Curt The machines are sharper, just not as bright. Scott told me that VDC also installs LUG tubes in some 9500 machines and sells them that way new. Scott told me the same thing I found, the machines are sharper but not as bright.
I agree though, it would be really nice to know exactly WHY the LUG tubes can't run high contrast in a 9500 when they run bright in the G90 and Barco machines.
craigr
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: |
Concerning LUGs in a Marquee.. I have no experience with them first hand. So I can't comment on anything that's been discussed here with these tubes in a Marquee. So I have no idea what would happen when they are used with my neck boards and VIM. |
Well my friend, we will find out what happens as soon as I am well enough to install your VIM and VNB's in my client's Madrigal
I'll phone you later today as well Mike.
craigr
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: |
Interesting comment here Mike, I am curious because Terry mentioned the same thing on a thread over on AVS about LUG's.
Athanasios |
Mike has told me he doesn't like LUG tubes as much as LCP's because LUG tubes in his experience tend to wear out faster and are not as bright. However, I am not so sure that the LUG tubes actually wear out faster than LCP tubes.
My theory (and Terry and I have agreed) is that the LUG tubes in the G90 and Barco machines focus much tighter allowing for a finer (smaller) spot size. This in tern may cause faster (more direct) wear on an LUG tube in machines that come with LUG tubes.
To test this theory, I have installed a new LUG green in my G90 and have intentionally defocused green slightly to provide a slightly larger spot size. The defocus is not noticeable on screen with real world images, but I intend to see if the phosphor lasts longer with the magnetics slightly defocused.
craigr
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | What did you see with the LUG's in the Barcos that you didn't like?
Athanasios |
When I was at VDC some years ago. I remembered something tse shared on the discussions of the super high resolution CRT's they had and were using in some installations. He said those tubes could do the higher resolution, but they were not good for brightness. And further in the discussion, it seemed that Higher Resolution tubes were not the best for brightness.
That visit made me think about two of the sites I maintained that had Barco 909's in blends. Those setups and the many 909's that were shipped to me I noticed that they were the only CRT projectors I've ever seen with wear on the tubes on almost every one of them I've looked closely at. I've even had a Barco 909 in my shop that had wear on the tubes, and it did not quite have 500 hours on the menu.
I since decided to not seek after that extra sharpness they provide over the stock tubes. Instead, I stuck with the stock tubes, because then I would be assured of many hours of use before wear, to include being able to crank up the brightness without worrying about tube wear.
I compensated with sharpness by making changes to the projector.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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I'll agree with the brightness comments, but generally most HT guys are not pushing the limit here anyways, right? Brightness and contrast are between 50 and 60.
I've also seen enough Barco 1209s in planetarium installations where brightness is usually about 10, and contrast is about 85-90, and there are no blooming issues with LUGs there either. Focus on them is bang on, zero blooming.
Anyways, enough theories, time to put them into action. 
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