CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[Person99]

[Sparky015]

Dave,
I disagree with you here. Lumagen is a prime example. They came out with a special Radiance for 72Hz for CRT'ers so that we can take advantage of BR's 24p feature, as well as those who wanted to process things such as their HD cable box from 1080i 60Hz to 1080p. With Cable TV also coming out with 3D content, the market for a processor is a lot bigger than just the CRT group. I would imagine those that switched to digital will want a processor so that they can process TV's 3-D content. I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't a furture enhancement to the Radiance with the built-in IR transmitter to boot. The problem is, for those that can't afford it's price tag.

[Sparky015]

Ofcourse, that's assuming Lumagen doesn't view this as a fad and not bother wasting R&D on it.

If all the other hardware manufacturers are doing it, I would imagine they are looking at their market segment as well (us).

[virusc]

I borrowed from work years ago the sensio 3D box and some movies to hook up to my Barco 1209s (no longer have). The 3d effect was pretty good. Their was some flicker it was a little worse than film gate poorly setup at theater. it ran at 60p (30fps per eye). The real downer however was the loss of light. It really was to dim on my modest 90" screen. I then used it on a 22" high output brand new Barco medical monitor that had something like 200nit briteness (very bright for a CRT monitor and it was brand new at the time). It was still dim but watchable. Based on this I don't think that with 1 projector it is going to ever give a good experience. I have also worked on a number of simulators, some 3D like the 3-4 Marquee 9500ultra setups edge blended and still was somewhat dim.

[ecrabb]

Pretty much, Paul. Well, actually 72hz x 2 is 144hz total... I don't know if the expensive commercial shutter glasses even run at that refresh, let alone the new consumer glasses, and I don't know how many CRT projectors (even G90's or 9500's) would be happy at that refresh. 120hz is about the highest I've seen/used. That yields 60hz/eye, which won't display film-source material without judder... And it wouldn't just be the judder we're used to seeing... It would be stereo judder.

Your wrap-up of my point is correct, though... I'll be very surprised if we don't need a processor (and something beyond what have that exists currently) to get a usable 3D video signal in addition to the glasses sync issue. That assumes you don't want to go the HTPC route.

Again, I think extracting/using the glasses sync signal is the least of our worries. The big question for me right now is, in what format do the new players output the signal in 3D mode, and depending on what that is, is it usable as-is (highly unlikely), or do we need a processor to make it usable, and if so, does any current processor available at any price even have the capability?

To give you an idea of the complexity I'm talking about (that goes way beyond "No problem, we can just build a little sync box to take the sync off the HDMI!")... Here are a few questions to start thinking about and answering:

1) In what format do the new BD players output 3D? (this is the biggie)
2) Will something like the Radiance accept/process that input?
3) If the Radiance (or another can accept that input), can the processor make a usable 3D signal from it?
4) What do the new players do if they see an HDMI 1.3 input (like a Radiance)... Is 3D enabled or disabled?
5) Can a Radiance output 1080p@96hz?
6) Even if we can output a lower-res like 720p/96, will that be comfortable to watch for two solid hours?
7) How will you feel about watching a picture that's less than half the brightness you get currently?

Like I said, even if you resolve all that other stuff, I think the last two are major issues that aren't simply technical hurdles.

SC

[David_Web]

The only reason I would even consider 3D is for gaming. And maybe enjoy(?) some movies in the mean time.

I'm not sure it adds enough to the experience for me to invest anything into it. Considering that the expense for shutter glasses would be a good upgrade if spent on a better graphics card instead giving a way better image. Plus you don't take the performance hit for doing 3D and you save some bandwidth.

Light is probably not 'that' much issue as I plan to run a 8" onto a 1.5-1.6m wide screen. But still.

I guess a 1k bulb muncher is a better choice for 3D unless you have something special in mind and at that point you don't care about cost anyway.

[Mark_A_W]

The format is already known.

The disc has Left image data, and Right-difference data.


It can be converted to side by side data (one huge frame), which Stereoscopic Player can play back in a multitude of different formats (dual screens, Nvidia...even coloured glasses).



I don't see the big mystery.


But I'm very skeptical the result will be something we want to watch.

[ecrabb]

[cmjohnson]

It's sync data in the HDCP-encrypted HDMI data stream. With the right software running in a device that has a valid HDCP license for content decryption, that sync signal can be tapped and used to drive a shutter glasses sync system.

It's that simple in basic concept. The details require the involvement of someone who has the requisite HDCP license and encryption tokens, and capacity to analyze and interpret what's going on and build the interface.


Moome may be able to do it.


CJ

[ecrabb]

CJ... It seems like you're not reading my posts at all... There are TWO issues we need to resolve to display 3D on our CRT's...

1) The active synch signal and emitter to drive the active stereo LCD shutter glasses. You've covered this issue several times in this and the other thread how this can be accomplished (at least in principle), and I don't disagree, so let's just say this is a simple matter of somebody with the engineering expertise, tools, and the HDMI license. Moome, HKmod, somebody else - whatever. You've covered it, so we're good there.

2) The video format. THIS is the biggie in my mind. WHAT is output from a new set-top BD player running in 3D mode? Is it 1080p96 with the stereo frames alternating (48hz/eye)? If so, you'll need a processor to display that because it will look terrible with each eye flickering at 48hz. Is it 1080p96? That would be perfect for us, but I suspect that's not what it is - it wouldn't make any sense for the digital displays. Is it 1080p48 (24p per eye)? That would make perfect sense for the digital displays, but it would absolutely horrible on a CRT and would therefore need a processor.

SC

[Spanky Ham]

[David_Web]

http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/

I though the link above made it clear to be an over/under 2205x1920 image sent at 24Hz. Unless HD Guru got false information but I doubt it as the apparently made a proper interview.

It would make sense if someone made a player that output the signal in alternating frames the way we want. And generated sync.
Having an external box makes no sense unless it converts to RGBHV in good quality at the same time, without adding much cost to bare converters.

From HD Guru
"How does the Directv 3d channel work?

Its Side by Side one-half resolution (960 x 1080) The left and right images are squeezed in one frame."

[CasetheCorvetteman]

[cmjohnson]

The last thing I want or need is to have to dedicate and configure yet another PC specifically for the task of watching movies.

I have no affection for complex programs running under Windows and won't bother with any other operating system.

I want to turn the projector on and then grab ONE remote control and watch a movie. You can have all the settings geeking and tweaking in FFDshow or whatever's the current favorite. You can have that stuff! I don't even want to see it anymore.

I tried the HTPC route a while back. It was interesting and you can certainly do a lot with it, but I don't ever want to be put out of the
ability to watch a movie because my player picked up a virus or Windows crashed.


As for the sync issue, well, look at it this way: When a suitably qualified person explores the 3D data stream and understands how it
all goes together, ALL he has to worry about from his end of the project is getting that frame sync signal out to an IR transmitter and LCD glasses system, in a compatible format.

We don't CARE what the internal arrangement of the video frames is if we're only pulling the sync data out.

It DOES become important if the player is outputting a signal that our projectors can't handle due to frame rate and resolution issues.

In that case, another suitably talented engineer could then build a scan converter, and it would make sense for the glasses driver
system to be integrated into that converter.

But, unless you're actually a highly qualified digital video engineer who is comfortable working under the hood of the HDMI and Blu-Ray
data streams, you probably don't need to bother much about the details because that's the engineer's job.

I certainly understand what would need to be done in general terms...but the coding required to make it happen is totally out of my element.

My understanding of the displayed resolution in 3d is that it can be displayed in multiple possible formats. It can essentially be alternating 1080i frames or it can be alternating 1080p frames. I've also heard that it can operate in a mode that I'm not sure what its name is but the on-screen resolution is 960 pixels wide and either 540 pixels tall or 1080 pixels tall. Half the horizontal resolution of
either 1080 format. I don't know if this is really going to be used much.

I think it's also possible that 3D can be operable in some lower resolutions such as 720p.

The frame rate and output resolution will be player dependent, of course. The question is, will we get the capacity to adjust that
frame rate and output resolution to best fit our displays? It'll take some good engineers to answer that question.


CJ

[piratepowwow]

HTPC is a piece of cake to get it done.

Don't want an HTPC, but still want 3D? I guess you either like spending a ton of money on shiny things, or you're up for a challenge!

So how hard can it be to make an IR transmitter to work with the 3D glasses and keep it synced to the picture?

For god's sake make it easy as possible on yourself though and don't try to pull the sync data right out of the HDMI signal. Let it be converted to RGBHV first.

Then use a microcontroller to sense the Vsync pulses and flash an IR bulb. Have the bulb flash the signal to switch shutters with every pulse and congratulations!

The IR signal is coded, so you'll either need to figure out the code, or modify the glasses so that they no longer need the code.

Use a pot to change the delay for the IR pulses to fine tune the timing, then put it in a shiny box with shiny packaging and sell it for $400 when it only cost you about $5 to make, and a day or two to design. Be sure to put lead in the box to make it heavy; it's not worth $400 if it's not heavy.

Of course, this won't work if the BluRay player won't ouput 120HZ video without magic microchips in a TV telling it to.

Oh, and if you do sell any, you may want to accept cash only ^_^ because you might be infringing on a patent or two. Though this technology has been around for quite some time, the relevent patents could be long gone by now.

[cmjohnson]

I'm not doing HTPC and that's the end of that little conversation.

HTPC is a niche solution anyway. Of all the people who will have 3D Blu-Ray and be able to watch it in 3D mode, I'll bet that less than 10 percent of those people will use the HTPC solution.

No, it's NOT a piece of cake, either. Not when it crashes. I won't make my home theater dependent on damned WINDOWS anyway.


The approach I propose has the virtue of being universal. It would work with any 3D Blu-Ray formatted HDMI source. This means that
it would thus be highly marketable to the LARGE number of people who have over the past several years purchased shiny new HD TV sets
that are capable of displaying the 3D image but don't have the 3D shutter glasses controller feature. People will be more than happy
to buy an adapter box for, say, 300 dollars that lets them USE their newer set for 3D, rather than have to shell out at least 2000 dollars
for a NEW TV which does have that feature in it, when their existing TV is still fairly new. It reduces the cost of entry to the 3D theater for a lot of people who've already paid out a lot recently.

It makes sense. It's a MARKETING OPPORTUNITY. There's a buck to be made here. But only if it's done RIGHT, which is with a
fully engineered, guaranteed compatible solution made to work with HDCP and HDMI. It needs to be simple to set up and user friendly,
with the capability to make necessary adjustments but still keep things simple. A phase/timing adjustment would be needed for sure,
as input-to-display times are highly variable from one display to another.

CJ

[kschmit2]

anyone ever try one of these on a CRT PJ?
http://www.edimensional.com/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=29

[CIR Engineering]

Just for some info, I have setup Radiance processors to run 1080i @ 120Hz and at 96Hz. My G90 rig will do it right now.

It seems to me that we could just pull the sync timing for the glasses off the RGBHV analog coming out a Moome or HDF3 board to the projector. Then send this to the IR emitter. If you have a VP that can handle the frequencies then all you would need is the 3D BD player and the IR emitter for the glasses along with the sync device.

Also, it's been a while but I am pretty sure the Vision processors will do 1080i at 120Hz and 96Hz... Lumagen does not officially support this, but the processor do a lot of things that are not officially supported. I don't have a Vision here, but if I get a chance I can try it the next time I service one. If the Vision will do it, you guys will also have a cheap VP option.

...or if one of you who has a Vision wants to try 1080i 120Hz please give it a go. I know the VP will report 120 Hz, but you have to check in the analog projector to make certain that the digital coming from the Lumagen really is that frequency.

Also, the Vision and Radiance processors may say the output is 19.88 Hz for 119.88Hz because it does not have a place for that many digits

craigr

[dturco]

[CIR Engineering]