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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:12 am Post subject: Barco Image Quality |
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At the same resolution is there a noticable difference in image quality between the Barco Data 808 and the BG808s. These two projectors have a different video chain and I was interested in knowing if that translated into better image quality at the same resolution.
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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I meant to say the same resolution of say 1080i.
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kal
Forum Administrator
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Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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secstate
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:58 am Post subject: |
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There would be some difference how major is sort of debatable. The improvements you would have would include:
1). 120 MHz neckboard versus the 75 MHz in the Data 808. While you might think the bandwidth would make a big difference. I didn't (I have had both board in my 808s Data) see any increase in resolution. What the boards do help with is the smearing that all the 75 MHz boards exhibit to a greater or lesser extent. I think the bandwidth was less important because you have limitations with the lenses .
2). Upgraded S video path. This was a nice improvement though subtle to my eyes.
3). Upgraded S firmware. This helps with getting the geometry closer to perfect. It is a big help.
The wild card is the Sony tubes. I don't know whether they are the same or sharper or less sharp than the standard issue 180DVBs. The number one biggest upgrade I ever made to my Barco 808 was putting in the high res 8" tubes that were standard issue on the later 1208s/2 series as well as really late model Cine8 series projectors. Those really made 720p shine. To be honest I always found 1080i soft on every Barco 8" I had. I think the HD8s just cannot resolve that level or horizontal resolution.
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| secstate wrote: | There would be some difference how major is sort of debatable. The improvements you would have would include:
1). 120 MHz neckboard versus the 75 MHz in the Data 808. While you might think the bandwidth would make a big difference. I didn't (I have had both board in my 808s Data) see any increase in resolution. What the boards do help with is the smearing that all the 75 MHz boards exhibit to a greater or lesser extent. I think the bandwidth was less important because you have limitations with the lenses .
2). Upgraded S video path. This was a nice improvement though subtle to my eyes.
3). Upgraded S firmware. This helps with getting the geometry closer to perfect. It is a big help.
The wild card is the Sony tubes. I don't know whether they are the same or sharper or less sharp than the standard issue 180DVBs. The number one biggest upgrade I ever made to my Barco 808 was putting in the high res 8" tubes that were standard issue on the later 1208s/2 series as well as really late model Cine8 series projectors. Those really made 720p shine. To be honest I always found 1080i soft on every Barco 8" I had. I think the HD8s just cannot resolve that level or horizontal resolution. |
Thanks this is just what I was looking for and that is a practical assessment of changing the video path. I take it you mean addind the 762719 switcher and decoder and 762720 rgb driver and you say only a subtle improvement here.
Did you add the 120mhz boards with the old video chain or after you upgraded those boards??
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Ile
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1491
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| secstate wrote: | | The wild card is the Sony tubes. I don't know whether they are the same or sharper or less sharp than the standard issue 180DVBs. The number one biggest upgrade I ever made to my Barco 808 was putting in the high res 8" tubes that were standard issue on the later 1208s/2 series as well as really late model Cine8 series projectors. Those really made 720p shine. To be honest I always found 1080i soft on every Barco 8" I had. I think the HD8s just cannot resolve that level or horizontal resolution. |
I'd say Sony tubes are bit sharper than 180DVB and bit softer than P16/PT18.
I found stock BG808s (Sony tubes+HD8) pretty sharp with 1080i, even with 1080p72 1:1 pixel pattern was decent. I should have picture somewhere.
Now I have P16 and HD10GT in same projector and can't say it's that much sharper than Sony tubes+HD8, with video content it could be hard to see that small difference in sharpness.
Haven't seen 808 in person, so can't comment about 808 vs BG808s PQ. There is probably not that big difference, when ABL is removed from 808 and streaking is gone. Sanyo video chips BW values 65 MHz vs 80 MHz would give better evaluation values for these two neck boards than Barcos 75 MHz vs 120 MHz.
Last edited by Ile on Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:41 am; edited 3 times in total
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Ile
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1491
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | Thanks this is just what I was looking for and that is a practical assessment of changing the video path. I take it you mean addind the 762719 switcher and decoder and 762720 rgb driver and you say only a subtle improvement here.
Did you add the 120mhz boards with the old video chain or after you upgraded those boards?? |
BD808s is weird mix of boards.  It have those new input and driver boards as stock, but old neck boards.
I guess he was simply adding new neck boards.
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secstate
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | | secstate wrote: | There would be some difference how major is sort of debatable. The improvements you would have would include:
1). 120 MHz neckboard versus the 75 MHz in the Data 808. While you might think the bandwidth would make a big difference. I didn't (I have had both board in my 808s Data) see any increase in resolution. What the boards do help with is the smearing that all the 75 MHz boards exhibit to a greater or lesser extent. I think the bandwidth was less important because you have limitations with the lenses .
2). Upgraded S video path. This was a nice improvement though subtle to my eyes.
3). Upgraded S firmware. This helps with getting the geometry closer to perfect. It is a big help.
The wild card is the Sony tubes. I don't know whether they are the same or sharper or less sharp than the standard issue 180DVBs. The number one biggest upgrade I ever made to my Barco 808 was putting in the high res 8" tubes that were standard issue on the later 1208s/2 series as well as really late model Cine8 series projectors. Those really made 720p shine. To be honest I always found 1080i soft on every Barco 8" I had. I think the HD8s just cannot resolve that level or horizontal resolution. |
Thanks this is just what I was looking for and that is a practical assessment of changing the video path. I take it you mean addind the 762719 switcher and decoder and 762720 rgb driver and you say only a subtle improvement here.
Did you add the 120mhz boards with the old video chain or after you upgraded those boards?? |
I added the 120MHz boards to a Data 808s so it had the rest of the upgraded video chain. You could see the difference on test patterns but it was subtle, I didn't see it at all on video material as my viewing distance (approximately 1.2-1.3 x screen diagonal). I actually ended up removing the boards because I had a low candle flicker effect at low IRE. The 120 MHz boards were a drop in replacement in the Data 808s. I have never messed with swapping S parts into a non-S Barco. My comparison there is that I had a Data 808 for a few years, swapped it for an un-modded Data 808s (both with similar tubes and hours) and then modified that with 120 MHz boards and P16 MEC tubes.
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secstate
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Ile wrote: | | km987654 wrote: | Thanks this is just what I was looking for and that is a practical assessment of changing the video path. I take it you mean addind the 762719 switcher and decoder and 762720 rgb driver and you say only a subtle improvement here.
Did you add the 120mhz boards with the old video chain or after you upgraded those boards?? |
BD808s is weird mix of boards. It have those new input and driver boards as stock, but old neck boards.
I guess he was simply adding new neck boards. |
Yes that is exactly what I did. I added the 120 MHz boards out of a Retrographic 808s which had the MEC tubes to my Data 808s
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:08 am Post subject: |
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Can you add the 120mhz boards without the 762719 and 762720 boards? and if yes is this change likely to produce and image quality benefits??
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secstate
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Ile wrote: |
Sanyo video chips BW values 65 MHz vs 80 MHz would give better evaluation values for these two neck boards than Barcos 75 MHz vs 120 MHz. |
Great point and that might account for the modest difference I saw (only visible on test patterns).
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secstate
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | | Can you add the 120mhz boards without the 762719 and 762720 boards? and if yes is this change likely to produce and image quality benefits?? |
I don't know I seem to recall the non-S Barco had shorter cables to go to the RGB amps and they wouldn't reach to the 120 MHz boards but I never tried. Since the 75 MHz and 120 Mhz are interchangeable within the S series (in fact you can mix them). I would guess they would work with the old electronics. But that is a guess, you might smoke something too. The only benefit I saw was the elimination of smearing with the 120 MHz boards. That smearing was pretty small on my set and the 120 MHz boards caused me another problem as they had a candle flicker effect at low IRE. I think this was an issue with my projector rather than board swap but in any case the difference was nominal enough that I just went back to the 75 Mhz boards which did not have this issue in my projector.
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| secstate wrote: | | km987654 wrote: | | Can you add the 120mhz boards without the 762719 and 762720 boards? and if yes is this change likely to produce and image quality benefits?? |
I don't know I seem to recall the non-S Barco had shorter cables to go to the RGB amps and they wouldn't reach to the 120 MHz boards but I never tried. Since the 75 MHz and 120 Mhz are interchangeable within the S series (in fact you can mix them). I would guess they would work with the old electronics. But that is a guess, you might smoke something too. The only benefit I saw was the elimination of smearing with the 120 MHz boards. That smearing was pretty small on my set and the 120 MHz boards caused me another problem as they had a candle flicker effect at low IRE. I think this was an issue with my projector rather than board swap but in any case the difference was nominal enough that I just went back to the 75 Mhz boards which did not have this issue in my projector. |
Yes the cables are shorter but that can be dealt with. To my knowledge the 120MHZ boards are physically interchangeable with the 75MHZ boards but I don't know if they will work with non 808s RGB driver and from what you are saying its a case of swapping one set of problems for another and from what Ile is saying Barco over stated both boards capabilities so its really stacking up against doing the work although I have a few of these neck boards so I still might.
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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There are two types of 120mhz neck boards for sony tubes. There are also the black square looking ones used in the 1208 as apposed to those used in the 808. Are they a better design perhaps even closer to Barco specification of 120Mhz.
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secstate
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | | There are two types of 120mhz neck boards for sony tubes. There are also the black square looking ones used in the 1208 as apposed to those used in the 808. Are they a better design perhaps even closer to Barco specification of 120Mhz. |
Greg Eisemann claims they are better, they used a push/pull type technology. Personally I cannot say.
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secstate
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: |
Yes the cables are shorter but that can be dealt with. To my knowledge the 120MHZ boards are physically interchangeable with the 75MHZ boards but I don't know if they will work with non 808s RGB driver and from what you are saying its a case of swapping one set of problems for another and from what Ile is saying Barco over stated both boards capabilities so its really stacking up against doing the work although I have a few of these neck boards so I still might. |
Yeah I don't see why they wouldn't work, I just have never tried it. As for the candle flicker effect I never did get to the bottom of that. I might have just been something with my projector. I found a few hits online with folks complaining about the same effect. Somebody referenced having their projector fixed for it but did explain how. So I don't want to say that the swap caused the problem. It might have been something with my projector. The 120MHz do totally fix the smearing/streaking when you have a bright object on a darker background. That does make a difference. Especially if your projector is on the worse side of average for that issue.
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Ile
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1491
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | | There are two types of 120mhz neck boards for sony tubes. There are also the black square looking ones used in the 1208 as apposed to those used in the 808. Are they a better design perhaps even closer to Barco specification of 120Mhz. |
1200/1208/1209 black box amps can't be used in 80* series, because these need different voltages. These work only in 120* non s.
These have two Sanyo VPA13 chips driving push/pull. These amps with few small mod would be better than newer 120MHz amps, but these need to be paired with old input and driver boards that aren't so good what newer smd ones in 808s/1209s. When whole signal chain is modded in both, older one should be sharper like Greg says. Don't know how other areas compares...
I got my BG1200 very sharp with mods to whole signal chain and with VPA18 chips in neck boards. Never solved BG1200 chassis noise problem (guess it was one sided pc boards in smps and deflection boards) and also get tired to Sony tubes. So I chanced to less noisy BG808s frame and MEC tubes.
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Ile wrote: | | km987654 wrote: | | There are two types of 120mhz neck boards for sony tubes. There are also the black square looking ones used in the 1208 as apposed to those used in the 808. Are they a better design perhaps even closer to Barco specification of 120Mhz. |
1200/1208/1209 black box amps can't be used in 80* series, because these need different voltages. These work only in 120* non s.
These have two Sanyo VPA13 chips driving push/pull. These amps with few small mod would be better than newer 120MHz amps, but these need to be paired with old input and driver boards that aren't so good what newer smd ones in 808s/1209s. When whole signal chain is modded in both, older one should be sharper like Greg says. Don't know how other areas compares...
I got my BG1200 very sharp with mods to whole signal chain and with VPA18 chips in neck boards. Never solved BG1200 chassis noise problem (guess it was one sided pc boards in smps and deflection boards) and also get tired to Sony tubes. So I chanced to less noisy BG808s frame and MEC tubes. |
Will the newer 120mhz boards work with the older input and driver boards? Or am I better off putting VPJ06 amps on the 75mhz boards.
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Ile
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1491
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | | Will the newer 120mhz boards work with the older input and driver boards? Or am I better off putting VPJ06 amps on the 75mhz boards. |
I guess that those could work also with old boards, but haven't tested it and can't remember if someone else have. Cable pin out are same, but there could be some small difference in IBCL signal between amps. Since old have much more capacitance in IBCL line and new ones have series resistor in there.
I'd test with some crappy tube, since IBCL limits gain from driver board according to measurement signal coming from near cathode (neck board).
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:30 am Post subject: |
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Do you need a BG808s controller to use the newer Switcher/Decoder and RGB driver boards?
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