CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[Curt Palme]

In the last couple of months, I'm literally getting offers of next to nothing CRTs dropped on me, seems a couple a day.
I've turned down XGs with worn tubes since they aren't even worth the price to ship across the continent, and am obviously turning down offers of any ES focusing set, even if people give them to me.

Today I bought a DTV 1200, two G90s and three 8500LCs to give you an idea of the volume that I'm getting. The problem is, these sets aren't selling nearly as fast as they were in the past, and while it could pick up next month (and I'm waiting and seeing), I have a stockpile of sets here that I might part out if they don't sell as a whole.

Someone suggested to me over at avs that I'm not doing anyone a favor by keeping set pricing high, that I'm robbing some people of enjoying CRTs, while the sets are piling up here. We went back and forth a bit via email, politely of course, but he seemed to think that I should dump anything lower than a 9" set for dirt cheap, say $500 or so (!), and make money off the repairs down the road, and only sell the 9" sets for a decent price.

I blew him off as being a wingnut, but I wanna throw this out there.

I have about 4 levels of customers, broken down as follows:

1) The quasi techy, that will rarely buy a set from me, as they have all the same resources as I do (eBay, CL, etc), and will buy a set for as little as possible, then do the repairs themselves. These people will only deal with me if they get stuck on a repair that they can't handle themselves.

2) The customer that isn't too technical, and will pay a premium for a set that's been gone through completely, and comes with a warranty. THey do the setup, but come back to me for repairs.

3) The CRT aficionado, that loves CRT, and still has no problem paying a premium for a high end set, say a Cine 9 or 9500 Ultra.

4) The industrial client that pays retail always, but of course wants awesome customer service.


To analyze a bit, customer (1) is remaining about the same. This comprises a bunch of people here that might have bought an original set from me, but have gone through a few sets, and are now at a high end 8" set or even a 9".

Customer (2) has shrunk the most in the last few years as people switch to digitals.

Customer (3) has also shrunk, but remains with CRT as the pricing drops, and is now buying 9" sets from me.

Customer (4) has increased as others have gotten out of CRT.

Now, back to the whackload of sets I have here, and can get more in:

What if I dropped the price of anything but high end 8" sets significantly, say 50% of what they are now? Would I get rid of them faster, keeping CRT in the game longer? There's good and bad sides of this, the way I see it:

Good:

-competitive with as is CRT pricing on eBay or Craigslist

Bad:

-I lose my shirt if something fails under warranty, and customers might complain if I want $200 for a part for a set they only paid $350 for out of warranty.
-I lose my stock of spare parts if I sell the projectors as whole units.
-I won't be as thorough on doing upgrades to key components if I sell a set for $350 as compared to $700 due to the time needed.

Also, will I really sell a bunch of sets if I slaughter my prices? Even at 50% off, I can't see gaining any of customer (1), but I might sell a few sets to customer (2). Heck, a price drop might discourage a fence sitter (hey, see, even Curt is getting out of CRTs, he's blowing them out now, the end is near).

Surprisingly, I still get ES set inquiries. Just this week I sold an ECP, something that hasn't happened in months. That was my last set, I have two as test chassis, and a messload of parts that should last right until about the time that the last person throws theirs out.

Again, I can part out something like a Barco 808/Marquee for more than I'd get for one that was retubed, save if customer type #4 wants one.

Bottom line is, I can't see gaining a messload of the market if I drop my set pricing. All that would happen at best the way I see it is I'd get rid of some lower end sets, to be replaced with higher end sets when I buy more.

Or, do I leave pricing as is, dropping pricing a bit at a time as demand wanes for sets?

Whatcha think?

[Curt Palme]

In the last couple of months, I'm literally getting offers of next to nothing CRTs dropped on me, seems a couple a day.
I've turned down XGs with worn tubes since they aren't even worth the price to ship across the continent, and am obviously turning down offers of any ES focusing set, even if people give them to me.

Today I bought a DTV 1200, two G90s and three 8500LCs to give you an idea of the volume that I'm getting. The problem is, these sets aren't selling nearly as fast as they were in the past, and while it could pick up next month (and I'm waiting and seeing), I have a stockpile of sets here that I might part out if they don't sell as a whole.

Someone suggested to me over at avs that I'm not doing anyone a favor by keeping set pricing high, that I'm robbing some people of enjoying CRTs, while the sets are piling up here. We went back and forth a bit via email, politely of course, but he seemed to think that I should dump anything lower than a 9" set for dirt cheap, say $500 or so (!), and make money off the repairs down the road, and only sell the 9" sets for a decent price.

I blew him off as being a wingnut, but I wanna throw this out there.

I have about 4 levels of customers, broken down as follows:

1) The quasi techy, that will rarely buy a set from me, as they have all the same resources as I do (eBay, CL, etc), and will buy a set for as little as possible, then do the repairs themselves. These people will only deal with me if they get stuck on a repair that they can't handle themselves.

2) The customer that isn't too technical, and will pay a premium for a set that's been gone through completely, and comes with a warranty. THey do the setup, but come back to me for repairs.

3) The CRT aficionado, that loves CRT, and still has no problem paying a premium for a high end set, say a Cine 9 or 9500 Ultra.

4) The industrial client that pays retail always, but of course wants awesome customer service.


To analyze a bit, customer (1) is remaining about the same. This comprises a bunch of people here that might have bought an original set from me, but have gone through a few sets, and are now at a high end 8" set or even a 9".

Customer (2) has shrunk the most in the last few years as people switch to digitals.

Customer (3) has also shrunk, but remains with CRT as the pricing drops, and is now buying 9" sets from me.

Customer (4) has increased as others have gotten out of CRT.

Now, back to the whackload of sets I have here, and can get more in:

What if I dropped the price of anything but high end 8" sets significantly, say 50% of what they are now? Would I get rid of them faster, keeping CRT in the game longer? There's good and bad sides of this, the way I see it:

Good:

-competitive with as is CRT pricing on eBay or Craigslist

Bad:

-I lose my shirt if something fails under warranty, and customers might complain if I want $200 for a part for a set they only paid $350 for out of warranty.
-I lose my stock of spare parts if I sell the projectors as whole units.
-I won't be as thorough on doing upgrades to key components if I sell a set for $350 as compared to $700 due to the time needed.

Also, will I really sell a bunch of sets if I slaughter my prices? Even at 50% off, I can't see gaining any of customer (1), but I might sell a few sets to customer (2). Heck, a price drop might discourage a fence sitter (hey, see, even Curt is getting out of CRTs, he's blowing them out now, the end is near).

Surprisingly, I still get ES set inquiries. Just this week I sold an ECP, something that hasn't happened in months. That was my last set, I have two as test chassis, and a messload of parts that should last right until about the time that the last person throws theirs out.

Again, I can part out something like a Barco 808/Marquee for more than I'd get for one that was retubed, save if customer type #4 wants one.

Bottom line is, I can't see gaining a messload of the market if I drop my set pricing. All that would happen at best the way I see it is I'd get rid of some lower end sets, to be replaced with higher end sets when I buy more.

Or, do I leave pricing as is, dropping pricing a bit at a time as demand wanes for sets?

Whatcha think?

[benareeno]

who is buying anything LESS than a good 8 incher? I can't imagine cutting the price on those projectors would open the floodgates...especially when you factor in shipping.

[garyfritz]

[WanMan]

Keep in mind if Curt off-loads his 7" & 8" inventory for cheap, he will get folks claiming that Curt screwed him or her even if he sells them for cheap and As-Is. Those kind of folks are just those kinds of folks.

Then one needs to consider what good will it do focusing (no punning here) on 9" projector sales if he will be bombarded by folks asking for assistance, even paid for, for all of the inventory off-loaded.

If inventory control is a problem, then I'd say keep the best 8" & 9" and dump the rest. Support what sales earn you a good living, both in sales and post-sale follow up service.

Its kind of like layers of snow. Each new layer adds to the pressure below it until something has to turn into ice. In this analogy, the ice are the units you dump.

Of course, if this results in a market flood of inexpensive XGLC (135x) parts then I am not going to complain.

[dturco]

My opinion, anything that can't do 1080p is near worthless. 1080p digital has the buyers attention, nothing is going to break through that. I am a prime example of this, I bought the 9500 because it says in your best/worst list it will do 1080p. Add to that any CRT must have a HDMI device to do Blu-ray the normal [normal not like me] consumer will run for digital. My thoughts good or bad is that even the 9" inch sets are not worth more than $3500. The 8" inch sets, unless your replacing an old one and are already in the CRT camp, I can't see why you should bother.

No new customers are likely to be buying anything that cost $2000 doesn't do 1080p and needs to have the HDMI added. $1000 is the breaking point as far as I am concerned, for anything less than 1080p.

Selling someone the $200 part after the warranty on a $350 machine is tough, but with the shipping costs buying another machine is going to be hard to justify.

I hope CRT has got more legs to it than I think. I believe it is a great piece of tech, but it is not convenient at all and is only good for people that like to tinker or are stubborn enough to stick with it.

Hell, I know it sounds like I am beating up on you and CRT but I'm not. I am just sharing what my thought process was when I bought in 9 months ago,and how I feel about it now.

So yeah lower prices mean more sets sold and more people to keep buying the parts, which is where it looks like you make your real money.

Just my opinion.

[drice1234]

Maybe you could pick a few people in different regions of the country that you could off load the deals on the non 9" machines to and let them deal with it. You could work with them to get the sets operational while charging them for parts and your expertise therefore making some money on that aspect. This would also get more sets into circulation rather than the trash which might mean more service work for you down the road. Maybe if the people that you picked got proficent enough they could take care of warranty issues in their region. It's the shipping that is the deal killer on the lower end machines. You don't want to pay more for shipping than you do the projector.

Dan

[Nashou66]

I agree with Gary. just look at the Longbow on Ebay that only went for 770 or so dollars. That is a bran new old stock set never used. and the higher end Ultra!!!
the seller reniged most likely and went to sell on the higher end market via Videogon, he wont get much luck there.

Id drop prices on all sets you want gone with no warranty, sell them dirt cheap and call it the Ebay sale , if they want a warranty add it appropriately, but still less than what your selling now.

Also lower your warranty period for the cheap sets and give a longer warranty for the High end set, this might sell some more of the higher ends ones like the VDC ultra you have. If i knew i could get a two year warranty for it it be worth doing. And on your end you'll pay better attention to that set before selling.

Athanasios

[Person99]

Well, you asked for my opinion. I actually think there is some good stuff to think about in this post Curt, so don't blow me off and consider what I'm saying.

I believe CRT is for all intents and purposes dead. There was the day when a $4000 CRT purchased from you compared very favorably (arguably better than) a $12000 digital. Those days are gone. Once you factor in the cost to ship a CRT, it is almost crazy to get one from a cost/benefit or price/performance perspective.

Thus, I for one do think your prices are still too high given the market. You need to get more competitive with pricing. The simple fact is $2000 gets you a damn nice digital PJ that outperforms a 9" PJ in many categories. There are very nice high end PJs available around the $6000 level with built in scaling and 24p support (typically at 96 Hz) AND the ability to do CIH set ups. So, why should one mess with the hassle of a Quee 9500 (set up, mounting, etc) if it is going to cost $6000, plus all the extras to get 24p support, good scaling, etc.

I have thought for years your value lies in service, not sales (especially as the profit margin is diminishing). It might not be easy or possible to pull off, but I think the only way you are in this space for the next 5 years or so is to go for the service market and your original post is correct, for this to work, you need more CRTs out there in the hands of non or semi-DIYers.

So, this is what I would suggest (risky I know). You need to take an "open source" model to this whole thing.

A $4000 CRT made sense because the digital option cost 3 times as much. Unfortunately, it is not just a matter of percentage anymore because 1/3 of $2000 still might not motivate one to deal with the hassles (mounting, set up, scaler, servicing, etc).

You are getting CRT PJs for peanuts, you need to sell them for peanuts. You need to find the price point where demand is just keeping up with supply. I would not doubt that this means no 7", 8" PJs for under $500 (they may actually have to be less than that as I get an acceptable to most 1080p PJ shipped to my house for $999), and 9" for $1500-2000 (again, may have to be cheaper as the damn Panny at $2K makes many people quite happy).

So, to support this, you need two sides of the "house":
1) A commercial side (business as usual)
2) An HT side

On the HT side, PJs are dirt cheap and they come with only a "no DOA" warranty. This puts you into the premier vendor position, you don't make much on most CRTs but you are THE source for them as why the hell would I buy anywhere else? You don't cost me anymore than unknown eBay dude, and I know your crap will work and your word is good.

Instead, you sell support contracts. These should range from cheap few hours per year phone support or set up support or stuff like that to full blown "extended warranty" type plans. Sell them for not only your CRTs (which can be bought bundled with either set up support or full boat) but also for any persons CRT. Obviously, the "advice" plans are not nearly as risky as the "full boat" plans for CRTs you didn't sell, so you can sell "Full Boat" plans at good discounts if bought at the time of purchase (since you know the set, you know the risk).

Since CRTs are getting dirt cheap to you, even full boat won't be that much of a risk as you can pretty much replace the CRT for very little money! So, the magic here is finding the price point, getting the language of the contract correct, and tracking everything.

Secondly, you need to make your business more professional. You need to start with this forum. Few people that are willing to shell out a total expense in excess of $10000+ for a home theater (all equipment and such included) are going to take you seriously after one visit to this forum. You need to:
1) Get rid of most non-HT talk--especially politics.
2) Get a zero tolerance policy for the immature behavior on the forum--and that means you too Curt
3) Get an overall more professional tone to discussions, especially digital vs. CRT (how seriously can you take a position when there argument against alternatives are "alternatives suck [best beavis and butthead laugh here]?)

If you feel a need to have a private place for the 30 regulars to continue to tell everyone why GW Bush or Sarah Palin are the smartest and greatest leaders in human history or continue with such insightful posts as "digitals suck--I mean really suck", then set up a different (completely disassociated with your business) site for this.

Third, you need to beef up your home theater cred. Become more than the "nuts and bolts tech guy" or "digital hater guy". Be able to discuss HT from a very knowledgeable base. Be able to give advice and recommendations on non-CRT set ups in addition to CRT set ups. This will make people want to do business with you more and trust you more.

Fourth, (the hardest one), leverage the paragraph above, plus attempt to build a mystique around CRT PJs. Figure out ways to make them "cool". Make them the "Apple" of HT options. Look to Audio for guidance. Turntables are cool again. People spend $5000 for a turntable which has a higher noise floor than a $50 CD player!!!! Some things that leap to my mind are participating in CIH discussions in forums, try to make CIA "cooler" than CIH (trust me, I'm not alone in the CIH "community" in that I feel great disappointment when a movie is 1.85:1--leverage that!)

If you pull this off very successfully (unlikely) then demand my actually start outstripping supply and set prices go up again.

Good luck and I do wish you success.

[Person99]

[Person99]

[Curt Palme]

Man, I was going to respond to Dave's first post, then realized it was longer than my original OP.

Good points all of you! No offense taken by anything that anyone has said. I typed the OP off the top of my head, been thinking some more as I was driving to the post office, and was gonna post, but I've got repairs that came in.

Keep posting opinions please. I know I can counter some points above, others I hadn't considered. I will respond either tonight or tomorrow.

Actually, the one thing I will say right up front is that the people that are here regularly probably represent under 1% of my customers. We are the diehards that follow trends and buck the system.

I know even now, some people are 'discovering' CRT. I just got a thank you email at avs for my site and the assistance I gave to get his newly found ECP running. So while they are far and few between, new people are discovering CRTs, while others are dumping the technology.

Thanks!

[Curt Palme]

Man, I was going to respond to Dave's first post, then realized it was longer than my original OP.

Good points all of you! No offense taken by anything that anyone has said. I typed the OP off the top of my head, been thinking some more as I was driving to the post office, and was gonna post, but I've got repairs that came in.

Keep posting opinions please. I know I can counter some points above, others I hadn't considered. I will respond either tonight or tomorrow.

Actually, the one thing I will say right up front is that the people that are here regularly probably represent under 1% of my customers. We are the diehards that follow trends and buck the system.

I know even now, some people are 'discovering' CRT. I just got a thank you email at avs for my site and the assistance I gave to get his newly found ECP running. So while they are far and few between, new people are discovering CRTs, while others are dumping the technology.

Thanks!

[dturco]

Person99, I may have been a bit generous with my 9" pricing and forgot to say it must have the HDMI input already there. I assume that you don't need a scaler just to do 1080p. You would need one to get the 24fp, but it isn't really necessary to get a 1080p good looking picture is it?

Just points of interest, no argument, just points.

[Mark_A_W]

Well, I'm a number 1. The other types of HT users will go, or are going digital, it's inevitable. Hell, even Graham has gone digital.

And a number 1 type customer will not buy an XG-LC for $2500. I've only ever bought bits from you, but I am on the other side of the world.

Anything less than 8" LC is not worth the effort of mounting/setting up. And 8" LC is not worth that much anymore either. The sheer cost of P19 tubes makes the next step difficult, considering where digitals are now.

If you want to keep making a living from CRT Curt, number 4's are your only hope.


And time is money Curt. There are enough boards around now for most projectors that I would just boardswap if I was you. Customers aren't going to pay $$$ for a repair when a board is worth $20-$50. Most projectors aren't worth your standard repair rate anymore.
Just maintain a tested (couple of hours running) set of boards and sell them when needed. Don't fix them unless they are rare. I've bought lots of boards from Hammerhead over the years.

[Person99]

[Person99]

[benareeno]

It's all about the free market...the market will dictate your prices. If they're not selling, you have to lower your prices...and I still think you should be nimble...buy and hold for a crt is not seeming to be a wise thing anymore.

[Elaine Benes]

[Curt Palme]

[Curt Palme]

[Mark_A_W]

2. You got lucky, it cannot last, you have to plan for that. If that's the case though, I have 2 XG-LCs for sale with 1 year warranty, and the parts to back them up

3. You need to be careful or you will go broke fixing them. I've never had any trouble with boardswaps, although I haven't repaired *that* many NECs (maybe 10). But the reliability issues is why I suggest you run the boards a while first. You're getting your hobby mixed in with your business. Learning how to fix an obscure fault in an obsolete projector is not going to help with long term prosperity..

[Nashou66]