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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | Ok, question to Mike. Do your dots currently bloom at high contrast? I know your grid looks fine. |
Somewhat. But nothing like what happens on a stock CRT projectors. I'll look at the dots later when the room darkens and post a picture showing them at 1080P.
Craig and I looked at this closely when he was here. He's on his way back home and he said he'll post on this when he gets back, but in the mean time, I'll take few shots later.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | Ok, question to Mike. Do your dots currently bloom at high contrast? I know your grid looks fine. |
Somewhat. But nothing like what happens on a stock CRT projectors. I'll look at the dots later when the room darkens and post a picture showing them at 1080P.
Craig and I looked at this closely when he was here. He's on his way back home and he said he'll post on this when he gets back, but in the mean time, I'll take few shots later. |
I'm in agreement with you here. I'm just trying to explain this so other understand it.
Everyone has to understand that when you increase beam current your increasing the number and speed of the electrons being emitted. This is what causes the phosper to glow stronger (contrast). This process also needs to be stable and no amount of focus control will resolve it. This also falls under bandwidth like you mention, which both pertain specifically to volume of something.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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I understand what your both saying but I have scoped the video signals at the neck cards running 1080p72 greyscale pattern , yes the trace not perfectly smooth and had noise on it, but it did not look like that much where even after possibly cleaning it all up so it was pure signal is enough to cause the contrast to be raised with no or very little blooming, it's an inherent characteristic of CRT and phosphor . As phosphor is excited some energy will have to spread to nearby phosphor particles, they are not enclosed in self contained areas, like a pixel for example, you'd have to shrink the electron gun apertures to get the area excited smaller.
And even if the signal was not wibbly the surrounding phosphor of the area that is suppose to hit will also get some residual energy since they touch. and giving it greater speed and power by turning up contrast there would be more surrounding area excited . Even with super focus control it happen. tis just how Phosphor behaves.
Send me a Vim to test, you said you were going to anyhow and are looking for two more testers and i have two identical marquee's. They say seeing is believing. 
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
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antorsae
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hey! I'm a voluteer too
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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As they say, A picture is worth a thousand words..... 
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | As they say, A picture is worth a thousand words..... |
Dude, if you're ever in this area let me know, or anywhere near this area.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: |
Send me a Vim to test, you said you were going to anyhow and are looking for two more testers and i have two identical marquee's. They say seeing is believing.
Athanasios |
Yes I did. I'll have to get one together first to send you. I have two aready to go out, with one going to California and the other to Wisconsin. The people they are going to, only one knows he's going to be a tester.
| Nashou66 wrote: | I understand what your both saying but I have scoped the video signals at the neck cards running 1080p72 greyscale pattern , yes the trace not perfectly smooth and had noise on it, but it did not look like that much where even after possibly cleaning it all up so it was pure signal is enough to cause the contrast to be raised with no or very little blooming, it's an inherent characteristic of CRT and phosphor .
Athanasios |
There's a different type of noise I've been talking about. It's not really measurable or very hard to measure.
I've been tracking down three types of noise over the years:
1, common noise from the LVPS that's mostly generated from the switching circuits.
2, Sweep circuit noise that gets on the rails or is radiated to the video circuits from a design that did not consider the noise being a problem.
3, controller board or computer processing noise that is common wherever there's a clock frequency or digital high frequency digital processing going on.
Most concentrate on the noise coming from the LVPS, mainly because it is the easiest to go after. It's a noise that can cause a problem in the image, and when it does it's also easy to see in the image. It's the easy noise to track down.
The other form of noise (sweep pulse) will usually show itself using the the raster as a scope that shows it. it too is an easy noise to go after.
The last of the three (digital crap) is the most difficult to track down. That's because it does not show itself easily in the image, nor would there be lines or any other common noise term that one could use to put a handle on it. It's better known as HASH NOISE. Meaning it's equally in the image everywhere. And for the most part, it's been a silent enemy of achieving the best image quality. The reason why it's so stealth and hard to isolate is because unlike the noises from the LVPS and sweep cicuits, that are in the KHz range. The noise from digital crap is usually in the MHz range, making it so fine that it's not going to show up too often in lines or other easily seen distortions. It in turn put a mask or cloud over the image. And when it does that, the image fails to have clarity and solidity from foreground to background. And that means you loose depth and that life likeness that is what make FILM so special.
That noise (digital crap) when properly isolated or decoupled from the video chain, the video chain is several steps up in performance, with improved low end (black) performance that was not so easily seen because it was under a brighter cloud of hash noise.
The task of decoupling and isolating that noise requires a bit of work and time to select for each rail or data line the right filtering (decoupling) to isolate that particular problem frequency that's feed directly into the video chain, to either control a switch or provide a needed sync or timing pulse for the proper operation of the video chain.
When cleaned up properly to include doing a reasonably good job with the other two, CRT moves from being something on it's way out, to setting even more goals for digital technology to achieve..
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Ok Mike, you have my e-mail address, if you saved the one with my address just send one out when you have a chance. Now will we need different VNB's or will the VIM comparison be fairly evident with 100%stock vnb?
Athanasios |
The VIM I'll be sending you should be used with 100% stock neck boards.
The Mikron mods from here on will not require that the neck boards be modified. However, the neck boards should be confirmed to be working to it's maximum performance level.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | Ok Mike, you have my e-mail address, if you saved the one with my address just send one out when you have a chance. Now will we need different VNB's or will the VIM comparison be fairly evident with 100%stock vnb?
Athanasios |
The VIM I'll be sending you should be used with 100% stock neck boards.
The Mikron mods from here on will not require that the neck boards be modified. However, the neck boards should be confirmed to be working to it's maximum performance level. |
Under 300 hours on these VNB's 
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:48 am Post subject: |
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Nash, when you get it, I may take a road trip up your way and check out your picture versus mine. I'm sure yours will blow mine away, but curious to see it nonetheless. I should have my pj mounted and go through a tedious setup by then, so I should have something to compare.
Paul
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~Paul
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Sparky015 wrote: | Nash, when you get it, I may take a road trip up your way and check out your picture versus mine. I'm sure yours will blow mine away, but curious to see it nonetheless. I should have my pj mounted and go through a tedious setup by then, so I should have something to compare.
Paul |
No problem If he can send it to me by the 12th of December it be great if you too come as Beenaroo and cliff are coming.
Ben is bringing an Ampro 3600 for me to mess with and cliff just wants to hang. Were also going to work on the blend and fix some issues I have. Maybe do a complete set up from scratch.
The Tv-one units have some issues and I am finding more, the more time i spend with it. I think they can fix it but not sure how committed they are right now. Bob Stephan and I and Andy in England are trying to put pressure on them.
I am going to work on the astig tomorrow as the move to the ceiling altered the dots. I had then perfect and no movement when ramping focus but now both flare to one side. Earths magnetics change just form a 5 foot move in height ;( I hate doing astig while the PJ's are on the ceiling but in some locations it has to be done, others nothing changes.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | Sparky015 wrote: | Nash, when you get it, I may take a road trip up your way and check out your picture versus mine. I'm sure yours will blow mine away, but curious to see it nonetheless. I should have my pj mounted and go through a tedious setup by then, so I should have something to compare.
Paul |
No problem If he can send it to me by the 12th of December it be great if you too come as Beenaroo and cliff are coming.
Ben is bringing an Ampro 3600 for me to mess with and cliff just wants to hang. Were also going to work on the blend and fix some issues I have. Maybe do a complete set up from scratch.
The Tv-one units have some issues and I am finding more, the more time i spend with it. I think they can fix it but not sure how committed they are right now. Bob Stephan and I and Andy in England are trying to put pressure on them.
I am going to work on the astig tomorrow as the move to the ceiling altered the dots. I had then perfect and no movement when ramping focus but now both flare to one side. Earths magnetics change just form a 5 foot move in height ;( I hate doing astig while the PJ's are on the ceiling but in some locations it has to be done, others nothing changes.
Athanasios |
Can I come Too
_________________
Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: |
I'd hate to go digital, I've yet to see one that looks natural. They also seem to bother me somehow. I think I'm allergic to digitals.. |
You too huh? 
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Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| dturco wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | | Sparky015 wrote: | Nash, when you get it, I may take a road trip up your way and check out your picture versus mine. I'm sure yours will blow mine away, but curious to see it nonetheless. I should have my pj mounted and go through a tedious setup by then, so I should have something to compare.
Paul |
No problem If he can send it to me by the 12th of December it be great if you too come as Beenaroo and cliff are coming.
Ben is bringing an Ampro 3600 for me to mess with and cliff just wants to hang. Were also going to work on the blend and fix some issues I have. Maybe do a complete set up from scratch.
The Tv-one units have some issues and I am finding more, the more time i spend with it. I think they can fix it but not sure how committed they are right now. Bob Stephan and I and Andy in England are trying to put pressure on them.
I am going to work on the astig tomorrow as the move to the ceiling altered the dots. I had then perfect and no movement when ramping focus but now both flare to one side. Earths magnetics change just form a 5 foot move in height ;( I hate doing astig while the PJ's are on the ceiling but in some locations it has to be done, others nothing changes.
Athanasios |
Can I come Too |
Hey a projector meet a stones throw from spicy chicken meet. Hmmm........
_________________
Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Not really a "Theater meet" since the Blend is not up to par yet. This is turning into more like a Crt owner meet ! I work on weekends since I am the Owner and Main cook, so I wont be around in the AM from 7 till 3-4 pm on Saturday and Sunday. But i'll be there in the Evening. Ben was going to drive down to drop off the Ampro and Cliff has been wanting to visit and see if the Thomas Tubes will work with a G90 mod tot he neck board, so I invited him and I think Arli might be tagging along.
I have been telling Ben about the blending Issues and he's going to help Calibrate the twins since I think my i1 Pro is off from sitting in the damp basement 
But the Issues with the Tv-one unit are still there and I am relentlessly trying to get them to be a bit more serious about it. There is a flaw that needs addressing.
But thats a long story that Bob Stephan (Boilermaker) and Andy Haliday( MadMrH) have been trying to work out with Tv-One.
But it be great to hang out and look at Mikes Vim and compare if he can find a spare to send.
let me think on the extra people for a bit and see what happens, It's short notice so don't expect much if we do have a small get togeth.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:23 am Post subject: |
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I'll bring Guinness, Jeremy will bring rum, and then all we need is spicy buffalo chicken, slim jims, and potato chips. It'll be a manly
gathering. Men, men, men, men,men, men....... a ship all filled with men.
_________________
Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| dturco wrote: | I'll bring Guinness, Jeremy will bring rum, and then all we need is spicy buffalo chicken, slim jims, and potato chips. It'll be a manly
gathering. Men, men, men, men,men, men....... a ship all filled with men. |
Monty Python: "Bet you're gay!" 
_________________
Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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antorsae
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Nash - I'd very interested in your findings. I am curious as to the PERCEIVED benefits of changing CLC449 op amps with EL5166ISZ ones. I understand you did this to VNBs and VIMs, right?
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