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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | But is the contrast actually putting out the same lumens mike compared to a stock VIM? I know you removed the one chip for the edgeblend contrast on the vim and used inductors to tie in the missing link. Not sure what else you did there but could it possibly be attenuating the contrast to not be as much a change as a stock vim. So i what i mean is could it be acting like the Green Drive control does, a large number change on the slider is really only a small change compared to the red and blues drive.
I just cant see how it would allow it with out altering the amount of current to the contrast at the Neck board. the vim can't control the spot size of the beam, only a focus adjustment, astig control or a tighter magnetic field would, am I correct in the physics of this? Can you measure the voltage on the vim test points TP14-16 , the range should be from 0-8.5 volts(0-100 contrast) . I'm just wondering if you may have lowered the max output here inadvertently not knowing.
Or measure the center pin of the video cable it should be 1Vpp at full contrast.
Athanasios |
You're mentioning the electronics on a stock Marquee. These neck boards has upwards of 50 parts replaced on each one. with the exception of the Motorola transistors mounted on the heat sink, every other IC and transistor in the video path has been replaced.
The real test was watching it at higher contrast levels with the SMPTE pattern in DVE on the screen.
William also has this, he was running his contrast at 80 I think or somewhere near that. It too can get very bright.
Craig measured the light output, but don't remember if we measured the full output. I think we only measured it at 75, which is where we did the color balance.
That version of the neck boards is short lived. Neck board mods will not be offered in the next version -- only VIM's.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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I still have a hard time believing it, i can't see physically how the spot beam size can be made smaller to not cause blooming at full or close to full contrast. I know your getting a sharper image that makes the spot beam most likely smaller but it have to be over 50% smaller to get that result i'd think. Its also a limitation of the physical size of the Electron Guns, if the aperture they emit the electron beam is set a certain spot size it cant be made smaller to get that result? I guess id have to see it and measure it with my own eyes.
Carry on.....
Athanasios
_________________
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | I still have a hard time believing it, i can't see physically how the spot beam size can be made smaller to not cause blooming at full or close to full contrast. I know your getting a sharper image that makes the spot beam most likely smaller but it have to be over 50% smaller to get that result i'd think. Its also a limitation of the physical size of the Electron Guns, if the aperture they emit the electron beam is set a certain spot size it cant be made smaller to get that result? I guess id have to see it and measure it with my own eyes.
Carry on.....
Athanasios |
Give Craig a holla... It wasn't easy for him either.
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antorsae
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Athanasios - I don't see how a change in the signal injected to the VNBs can prevent blooming. Blooming has nothing to do with the input signal, or the signal as amplified by the VNB, it has to do with the beam. I understand that the G90 and Cine9 have better beam control b/c of the gun aperture (LUG vs. LCP) and electronic beam control (more advanced than the Marquee, both in terms of strength and features)... I don't think you can get such control in a Marquee unless CPC magnets were controlled electronically (the G90 does this and more).
I think the only mod out there to prevent blooming is the frankenyokes mod.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Lets try thinking of it like this. Think only the video signal. Its travelling in a straight path but certain little distortions in that path are making the signal wibble a little. That wibble is transferred all the way into the beam so the beam has a little wibble. If you can then correct those little distortions that are affecting the video signal and allow it to flow perfectly smooth then so will your beam, without advanced outside influence.
Definitions
Wibble: a cross between a wiggle and a wobble..... 
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, And let me add the higher contrast issue. Think only about that wibble now. Now higher contrast is like more current. Its pushing that video signal along in greater force and the greater force is making the signal wibble even more and as such is why its affected by the higher contrast.
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1031
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| antorsae wrote: | I understand that the G90 and Cine9 have better beam control b/c of the gun aperture (LUG vs. LCP) and electronic beam control (more advanced than the Marquee, both in terms of strength and features)... I don't think you can get such control in a Marquee unless CPC magnets were controlled electronically (the G90 does this and more).
I think the only mod out there to prevent blooming is the frankenyokes mod. |
Where did you get this from?
Let's look at this. The barco 909 uses a single G1 drive to the CRT, which is the worst if you understand that there's one single amplifier that has to handle everything. It would be like using a class "A" amplifier to drive a subwoofer.
The G90 has a mirrored output much like the marquee, where they are mirroring two drives into both cathode and G1 at the same time. The G90 uses 2 Sanyo power video modules, while the Marquee uses discrete Motorola RF 500mhz power transistors (6).
And being able to make this happen with the lower resolution tubes makes better sense than when using higher resolution tubes, because high resolution tubes are not meant for brightness. that was one of the things i learnt while at VDC. They have special high resolution tubes there, and they make it clear that they cannot be driven as bright as the other tubes.
Anyway, it's not important to me if you believe this or not Check with Craig or William.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| 1031 wrote: | | If you can remove all trash from signal that is feedet to tube you can reduce also beamcurrent. |
Bingo!
That is one of the main reasons why this is possible. A great majority of the light you're seeing coming out of your tubes is partially noise. Or it's a signal with other none signal components. This puts a huge task of the guns.
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Elaine Benes
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1416
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: |
My screen width is 82" - It's a perfect size for the 10L's.
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Wrong.
Direct from the manual, check yourself, page 87, here is the link to the manual as posted on this site:
http://www.curtpalme.com/docs/ElectrohomeMarqueeUltra8500_8500LC_9500LC_User.pdf .
The MAXIMUM screen width the HD10L can be used with a 9" tube is SEVENTY ONE inches.
I've seen this with my own eyes. My friend, who has two 9500LC's, tried for YEARS to tell me his HD10L equipped projector had something wrong with it, and that was why it wouldn't focus well on his 84" wide screen. I told him about the manual's stated maximum, and finally, after YEARS of bad focus, we put the projector on a dolly, moved it to the CORRECT spot, which reduced the image size to about 70" wide, and VOILA, absolutely perfect, razor sharp focus corner to corner, side to side.
Try it yourself. I'm certain you'll get the same exact results....
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Elaine Benes wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: |
My screen width is 82" - It's a perfect size for the 10L's.
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Wrong.
Direct from the manual, check yourself, page 87, here is the link to the manual as posted on this site:
http://www.curtpalme.com/docs/ElectrohomeMarqueeUltra8500_8500LC_9500LC_User.pdf .
The MAXIMUM screen width the HD10L can be used with a 9" tube is SEVENTY ONE inches.
I've seen this with my own eyes. My friend, who has two 9500LC's, tried for YEARS to tell me his HD10L equipped projector had something wrong with it, and that was why it wouldn't focus well on his 84" wide screen. I told him about the manual's stated maximum, and finally, after YEARS of bad focus, we put the projector on a dolly, moved it to the CORRECT spot, which reduced the image size to about 70" wide, and VOILA, absolutely perfect, razor sharp focus corner to corner, side to side.
Try it yourself. I'm certain you'll get the same exact results.... |
Hmm.. thanks for this. Not sure how I missed it.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a few quick shots both taking with the contrast at 100. The grid image I could not get the contrast window to stay open during the shot.
Bot were taking in a non light controlled room.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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You guys are using the word beam current incorrectly. When you raise contrast your increasing beam current globally. Which is why, if the beam is unstable because of video noise, the more you increase the contrast(beam current) the beam becomes more unstable.
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antorsae
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | antorsae wrote: | I understand that the G90 and Cine9 have better beam control b/c of the gun aperture (LUG vs. LCP) and electronic beam control (more advanced than the Marquee, both in terms of strength and features)... I don't think you can get such control in a Marquee unless CPC magnets were controlled electronically (the G90 does this and more).
I think the only mod out there to prevent blooming is the frankenyokes mod. |
Where did you get this from?
Let's look at this. The barco 909 uses a single G1 drive to the CRT, which is the worst if you understand that there's one single amplifier that has to handle everything. It would be like using a class "A" amplifier to drive a subwoofer.
The G90 has a mirrored output much like the marquee, where they are mirroring two drives into both cathode and G1 at the same time. The G90 uses 2 Sanyo power video modules, while the Marquee uses discrete Motorola RF 500mhz power transistors (6).
And being able to make this happen with the lower resolution tubes makes better sense than when using higher resolution tubes, because high resolution tubes are not meant for brightness. that was one of the things i learnt while at VDC. They have special high resolution tubes there, and they make it clear that they cannot be driven as bright as the other tubes.
Anyway, it's not important to me if you believe this or not Check with Craig or William. |
Mike,
I am taking about beam shape, not the G1/cathode lines that excite the gun. By beam shape I am specifically talking about:
- 5 Zone Focus (4 dynamic, 1 static -center-)
- 9 Zone Stig (Marquee has two controls for this X/Y) for
- Static 6-pole CPC Magnets (flare, astigmatism, and triangularity)
The G90 AFAIK has:
- Hexapole beam control - which I think at a minimum is zone focus as in the marquee (maybe more zones), and instead of passive flare, astig and triangularity it has them electronically controlled across various zones: in the marquee for example you can only control astig in zones, but not flare nor triangularity - the G90 has afaik zone control for those too. I know b/c I modded a G90 yoke set and it had windings that I plugged to the astig board and controlled triangularity ... AND an extra assembly which I *think* (b/c I have not installed in the marquee) controls flare electronically.
If bloom was a video-signal related issue, it would be horizontal only. When I see blooming I see the beam shape grows in a circle in all directions from the beam center.... this is not a video-signal issue.
Maybe you are talking a different kind of bloom. To me the most noticeable is beam bloom (not signal bloom).
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| antorsae wrote: |
If bloom was a video-signal related issue, it would be horizontal only. When I see blooming I see the beam shape grows in a circle in all directions from the beam center.... this is not a video-signal issue. |
I have a particular question to this, just to make sure we are all taking about the same thing here.
Now this anomaly seems to be an issue only when you raise contrast.
Now I dont have a Marquee to check this myself.
So, if you bring up a dot pattern at an average contrast and the dot is fine. Then you raise contrast until the dot blooms, is the bloom directional or does it surround the entire dot equally?
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antorsae
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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The bloom is not directional, it surrounds the entire dot equally.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| antorsae wrote: | | The bloom is not directional, it surrounds the entire dot equally. |
But that's only if you have your stig setup properly.
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antorsae
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | antorsae wrote: | | The bloom is not directional, it surrounds the entire dot equally. |
But that's only if you have your stig setup properly. |
Well... of course, at least I'm am talking about mods to enhance the intrinsic performance/reliability of the PJ, not to address an obviously badly set up one (having stig done incorrectly would fall into that category)
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, question to Mike. Do your dots currently bloom at high contrast? I know your grid looks fine.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| antorsae wrote: |
I am taking about beam shape, not the G1/cathode lines that excite the gun. By beam shape I am specifically talking about:
- 5 Zone Focus (4 dynamic, 1 static -center-)
- 9 Zone Stig (Marquee has two controls for this X/Y) for
- Static 6-pole CPC Magnets (flare, astigmatism, and triangularity)
The G90 AFAIK has:
- Hexapole beam control - which I think at a minimum is zone focus as in the marquee (maybe more zones), and instead of passive flare, astig and triangularity it has them electronically controlled across various zones: in the marquee for example you can only control astig in zones, but not flare nor triangularity - the G90 has afaik zone control for those too. I know b/c I modded a G90 yoke set and it had windings that I plugged to the astig board and controlled triangularity ... AND an extra assembly which I *think* (b/c I have not installed in the marquee) controls flare electronically.
If bloom was a video-signal related issue, it would be horizontal only. When I see blooming I see the beam shape grows in a circle in all directions from the beam center.... this is not a video-signal issue.
Maybe you are talking a different kind of bloom. To me the most noticeable is beam bloom (not signal bloom). |
That's all fine. I agree that both Sony and barco did an excellent job refining how to control focus in various zones and getting the best focus, BUT... that's not the most important part in being able to properly resolve a high bandwidth signal.
I have bot G90 and a couple of Barco 909's here. I've been working on and setting up. calibrating Barco 909's for about 4 years now. I know almost nothing about what's inside of a G90 menu. They are truly exceptional CRT projectors when it comes to focus and focus control. However, when you get to what's also very important when it come to HD signals and bandwidth requirements, they both suck. Not sure how they were able to do so well in the other areas and just simply do such a poor job on resolving the bandwidth that they claim. OTOH, the Marquee does not have the better focus controls that the other two have, but it surely has the better video chain. Now the G90 that we're working on will be another thing. We have greatly cleaned up the video chain and has also improved its bandwidth performance.
To properly resolve higher bandwidths you'll need more than super focus control. You'll need bandwidth and a really clean video chain that has very accurate pedestals.
Here's the things with TRUE 1080P. When it's done right, it'll give you an image that's clean. I like what Craig called my setup when he said it was "solid". You'll also need the right bandwidth and a bit of headroom as to bring out those subtle nuances in the image. The better focus control is important, but no level of super focus control can get you around the bandwidth and signal integrity issues that are so common in our CRT projectors.
You must have both. Once you have great signal integrity, and good to better focus control. You'll be able to get an image from 1080P that's fluid and dimensional. Everything in the backgrounds become clearer, as there's a ton of more color range to include the colors being more natural.
I just got off the phone with Craig a few minutes ago. He told me that he would address the brightness he saw coming from my 9500LC for anyone who's doubting that it's possible..
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