CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:59 am Post subject:

I've often reversed my stance on all things electronic, including digital projectors that we all love to hate here.

You're the one that came here peddling your wares. You need us more than we need you, that's for sure.

Try posting your original post over at www.avsforum.com, one of the world's largest HT forums. You'd not only get met with derision, you'd get kicked off for trying to sell your wares without pulling a banner ad.

The fact that you won't send me a tweeter to evaluate, the fact you have no distribution set up to sell your stuff tells me that you're probably working as a 1 man show out of your house. There's nothing wrong with that, but then don't try and come across as a mega corporation when you're not, Big Daddy.

psychoacoustic · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 26

Okay, I've gotten a few things off my chest and have settled back down to the business at hand; i.e., trying to introduce you to better sound through a new technology. Let me say right up front that I have softened up a bit and will now send you the ETL tweeters to evaluate. A suggestion: try them behind a perforated front projection screen and I believe that you will find that they bring the sound stage forward with more clarity on both dialogue and music. Anyhow, you be the judge on how you test them; all I ask is a fair and unbiased evaluation. If you hate them, just send them back. Otherwise, feel free to keep them and please discuss your testing experiences.

You nailed it on one point: I am now only a one-man dog & pony show working out of my home; but you have got to start somewhere. However, the customers for the TBI Sound products include both high end sound system users plus well known companies who have licensed the use of the ETL technology. They include Sharp, Marantz, ASUS and others that already have their products on the market. Then there are several other licensees who have not yet introduced there own products but have them under development with ETL technology. They include manufacturers of laptop computers, inexpensive headphones and cell phone speakers - all of which are notorious for their lousy sound. There has always been a general improvement in sound quality and presentation in all of these products, and that is where the ETL technology has been validated over and over.

Historically, since the 1920's, nobody has been able to understand how to control the resonance problems behind the driver in conventional loudspeakers. How to make the box sound disappear. That is the Achilles' heel of the sound industry and yet it has not been addressed in the past until ETL technology hit the streets about six years ago. Restricted speaker placement, equalization, room treatments, etc. have been used to compensate for loudspeaker problems such as cone breakup, boomy bass and standing waves/reflections in the listening room environment. But the problem has always been and still is, the critical dampening of the speaker enclosure so that the driver responds only in real time to the signal; i.e., without overhang or resonance after the signal is removed. This applies to smaller, mass market lifestyle speakers as well as those larger floor standing speakers that cost mega bucks.

Just read what one pro reviewer, Paul Folbrecht, said about the subwoofer at http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Speakers/T.B.I./Magellan-VIP-Active-Bass-Module/speakers/28/282462.html Here's an excerpt: "It's hard to stress how perfect and unusual is (the) disappearing act. Even the $4000 REL subwoofer I once owned could not do this. It could not blend perfectly with very fast drivers and draw no attention to itself. It did certainly go lower, something like 3 dB down @16 Hz, and I'm sure it had the potential for higher output, but I don't need that." And that was a review of the TBI powered subwoofer with only a 6" driver.

There's another great review on the micro monitors at http://www.audioreview.com/TBIcrx.aspx There, Eric LoBue said, "What I would like to see, however, is to see this technology get picked up by those very large manufacturers of 'home theater in a box' and portable boombox type systems. This technology sounds great, and anyone with a discerning ear knows that those types of mass consumer systems could really use some improvement." Well, since then, that is exactly what is happening. Walmart-type HTIB speakers are indeed target market now so everybody can enjoy good sound not just the so-called high end guys. You identified that one correctly too, while trying to make it sound negative.

But, back to the high end reviews, John Potis evaluated products that an OEM customer of TBI's sells. These speakers, with the same tweeters I am sending you, sell for $5,500/pair with stands. At http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue40/claravu_88.htm you can read the entire, very comprehensive review that concludes with, "Sometimes I hear speakers such as the ClaraVu 88s from Gingko Audio and wonder how such an upstart speaker designer can so clearly hit one out of the park while other companies seem to flounder in mediocrity. In terms of the market, it's gotta be a bear to break into; what with so many speakers already out there. Why take a chance on an upstart? Why even bring one to market? In a lot of ways, it makes little sense to me. But then again, I'm not the manufacturer. I'm just the reviewer and if it's my job to report to you what a review piece sounds like, here it is: the ClaraVu 88s are darned nice speakers. The more I listen to them, the more I like them."

He was spot on with that comment. It is a challenge, especially in today's economy, for any start-up company like mine to succeed. But these TBI products (even their cheap tweeters) are really good and deserve some recognition, so I'm not giving up that easily. Admittedly, I made a huge mistake with my opening approach on your forum. I am ready to try another way from now on.

Please send me your mailing address and I will send the tweets out this week. Actually, I will send you 2 pairs of them: one to install in your car and the other to play around with in your HT system. We'll talk about the subs later.

Enjoy,

Dave

WTS · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1276 Location: Calgary

Hey Curt,

Have a listen then maybe you can pass them around so some of us can have a listen. I'd like to compare them to my top end Dynaudio drivers.

macgyver655 · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 8508

Now that's the type of post that I would read with an open mind. I'll await a review.

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:35 pm Post subject:

OK, NOW we're talkin'.

Dave, PM sent momentarily with my address.

Sure, if Dave says it's OK to send these tweeters around, I will do so. We'll start a new thread with regards to that.

WTS · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1276 Location: Calgary

Curt, Sounds good to me, then we'll see if they sound good to me.

Nashou66 · Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY

Id like to try one of his subs in my theater. I did read most of the TBI stuff and the subs do sound like they might be just what i need to replace my old Velodyn VX12 series 80 watt sub. I just don't have money right now to buy one but I'll pay for shipping to evaluate one for a few weeks then send it back if i dont like it or pony up the cash if I decide to keep it. I too would right a review either way good or bad upon a listening period.

Athansios

psychoacoustic · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 26

Nashou66 · Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY

psychoacoustic · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 26

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:19 pm Post subject:

Dave, is the amp UL and or ULC approved?

psychoacoustic · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 26

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:40 am Post subject:

As promised, Dave sent me two pairs of his center channel 'cleaner uppers'.

I'm not posting anything yet, but I take back some of what I said in my above posts.... I will post more in about a week or so.

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:46 am Post subject:

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:48 am Post subject:

I'll explain why when I do a full post.

Go to sleep Analog, it's 2 AM Toronto time! Very Happy

WTS · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1276 Location: Calgary

Okay we'll wait for your review.

WTS · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1276 Location: Calgary

Well I'm not sure if I'm the first to review these tweeters or not but Curt sent me a pair of the TBI HDSS TWEP51.

These things are small, they're about 1.5" diameter 3/4" deep. The box says the cap crossover is at 3.5k but the paper inside says 2kHz so I'm not sure which one it is.

I suppose what I compared them to isn't exactly fair but it's the only set of high end speakers I have. The drivers in my speakers are all Dynaudio's top end drivers, the tweeter alone are worth over $1k and the mids are close to that. With that said how I went about comparing them was I connected the TBIs to the same connection which power my upper drivers as I have a biamped system. I draped a heavy double folded towel down from the top of the speaker cabinet to cover the tweeter and the upper midrange drivers, then I hung the TBI tweeter just over the top of the cabinet infront of the towel. I then switched back and forth from covered to uncovered - when the main drivers where uncovered the TBIs were covered etc.

Some of the discs I listened to were Chet Atkins/Mark Knopler Neck To Neck, Dire Straits Brothers in Arms, Dave Grusin Migration.

What can I say, for such a small driver it sounded quite remarkable. It never sounded strained at any time and at times the peaks got very loud. But that is the good point, the bad points are they sounded congested/vealed, their sound stage was very narrow, although that could be because they weren't mounted on proper baffle (all my drivers are mounted on a 1" thick lead baffle). They tended to emphasize certain areas and not others along the frq response curve, no freq curve was supplied so I have no idea where the peaks and valleys occur with these tweeters. Also they did seem to be fairly directional. I never listened to them for hours on end but I had the feeling they could get fatiguing. Of course I should mention that there was no doubt a hole created in the full freq response when I covered up my drivers to use the TBIs, how big it was I don't know as I don't know if the TBIs crossed over at 2k or 3.5 k, so there was a hole between my upper bass drivers and the TBIs.

I suppose a more fair test would have been to compare these TBIs to something in their price range/class from the Seas or ScanSpeak line of tweeters. According to their website these tweeters sell for $150.00USD/pair.

Never the less for the small size of these units they really surprised me with what they could do.

After I digest what I heard some more I might add some more verbiage to this post.

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:56 am Post subject:

OK, my turn.

Let me start by saying that I opened the box with anticipation. What I got was 'car stereo' tweeters as expected, with surface and flush mounts, with a little inline crossover. Nothing new here really, I see these from Pyramid at say $20 per pair, or from Alpine or other name brand at say $200 a pair.

I then connected them to my bench POS 4" 2 way speakers with an internal tweeter, the TBIs were larger than the tiny tweets (dome) in my bench speakers.

I connected the TBIs in parallel with the boxes, and no question, the top end was extended. Whether I could listen to the extra high end is certainly a question as WTS says. What I did notice is that a lot of these tweeters are crossed over at 3-4Khz, resulting in very little mids coming through the factory box tweeters. Disconnect them, and you lose the highs, but you retain the mids. From what I heard by connecting the TBIs only to the speaker line is more mids than I'd normally expect from tweeters.

So, given the application in a HTIB system with LCR speakers with poor highs, these additions will certainly bring that out. Will they add to a high end HT system? Probably not, assuming that existing tweeters cover the range that these do.

I exchanged a couple of emails with Dave, and suggested that the tweeters be mounted in a surface mount small box so that they could sit on top of a center channel or even a plasma. What came in the box is a surface mount plastic thing that needed a screw drilled into something to hold it in place. He then emailed me some mockups of cabinets, which addressed my issue.

Another thing that the TBI doesn't address is is various speaker sensitivities. Bose come in at 84-88db 1w/1m, Klipschorns come in at something like 102db. Dave said that they had entertained a level control, but decided against it due to costs.

I want to fire these into my car, as I've got cheapie tweeters at the tops of each door, and want to see how these do. Haven't had time to do that yet.

So, will they do what Dave claim? Sure.

Oh, and as for the transmission line concept that Dave talked about, I called my speaker expert that I used to work with years ago, and he says that yes, a cabinet resonance can be reduced/lowered by doing what Dave says, even for tweeters. So I learned something new. Smile

I don't believe it's a new concept with a new patent though, since my speaker guy knew all about it. Perhaps the 'new' patent is a specific application, I didn't do the research.

Bob also says that the 'car stereo' box will be reworked shortly, that's just the way he gets them in.

Bob, feel free to add or clarify on any of the above.

<edit> it helps if I get Dave's name right! Smile

WTS · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1276 Location: Calgary

Yeah I guess you could say that I expected different than what was sent to me, I half expected a small speaker enclosure, you know 8x6" or something, not tweeters. I thought this all started with center channels.

I'm not sure what I would pay for a set of these, but I don't think I would shell out $150USD for them. Although for a car I suppose you don't have room for normal sized tweeters so the small package is a bonus considering the sound quality coming out of them.

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:16 am Post subject:

AS I said, I think Dave's in the first stages of production. I don't have an anechoic chamber to do testing in, nor do I have the time. I think I targeted the market correctly, it's similar to the Radio Shack 'Supertweeter' that was posted somewhere recently here. (maybe in this post, I didn't check), but the TBI has far more lower frequency response.

Dave, here's a target market that my speaker guy suggested: Old people.

Why? They have more hearing loss than younger people, and maybe I PMed you already, there's a reason that the Klipsch center channel speaker is popular: It as a built in horn to accentuate the high frequencies. Market the tweeter to the aging that have a HTIB, and you've got instant sales.