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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:04 am Post subject: OT: Bonded Leather |
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This has been bothering me for awhile. Roman over on AVS has been talking about this new bonded leather for the Berkline seats. I will quote one of his posts:
| Quote: | The bonded leather is a new material (I am talking about the latest generation of it) that is made of leather ground and meshed together with some synthetic components and then stretched into a new cover. The result is really amazing. The cover looks and feels like buttery soft almost lamb skin leather. It is also non-scratchable and because of added synthetic components could hold up quite better than leather (although only time will tell). I actually tried to scratch it with a key, and I could not even leave a mark on it.
So far we have sold quite a few recliners in this cover, and I have not heard any negative comments back. The feedback is actually quite positive.
Now, please understand, this is my opinion only and should be taken as an opinion and nothing else. I do believe that for many people who are trying to find none expensive solution, especially in today's difficult economic conditions, this is a great alternative to leather. It looks and feels great, it is scratch resistable and it is less expensive..." |
This was one of my replies:
| Quote: |
I spoke with the supplier I recommended Roman to in the other thread. I sent him Roman's quote and asked him to find out if this is any better than bicast. He sent me an email this morning with a reply from one of the largest leather chemical suppliers in the world.
"Quote:If you are truly a leather guy – you should be totally offended – this is just an other cheap way to say you have leather –what you have is a man made imitation – “A CHEAP KNOCK OFF”
If you are a chemical guy – you will love this as you get to sell a lots of chemicals – as this product is nothing more than a painted man made substrate. –
Leather on the other hand can not be duplicated – the soft buttery feel comes from the skins used and enhanced with the coatings that give it it’s unique characteristics – This my friend can not be duplicated.
Real leather is like a fine bottle of wine or the best you can imagine in a beautiful woman!! "
Until Roman makes the five minute trek with a sample over to this supplier, this supplier runs across some samples from somewhere else, myself or another industry friend runs across this new material, I can only say proceed with caution.
Here is a link that a very knowledgeable industry friend sent me:
http://www.mainlychairs.co.nz/leather%20advice.htm |
I have let it go over at AVS as I have already warned people about this material. I decided to start this thread to tell people over here that you should stay away from this. While Roman may be correct and this new "bonded leather" may actually end up being more durable and longer lasting, I don't advise being the guinea pig. Let other people take the risk. I get more calls from people who have bought this crappy man-made particle board leather than any other problem. This material is basically either an emulsion of ground up bits of leather or crappy split hides with a thick coating applied on top of it. They are asking the coating to do all of the work, which is kind of like asking paint to hold up your walls.
This doesn't just go for the Berklines, but for all of the bonded, bicast or whatever they try to call it leather furniture out there. Usually the easiest way to tell if it is bicast is if it has a very high gloss. Almost all of the bicasts I have seen have very high gloss. Stick with regular leather or if you can't afford it then go with a standard fabric. I should mention that even though it is found in the cheaper furniture some stores try to pass it off in their higher end furniture as well.
I don't have anything against Roman well maybe one thing. For someone who seems to sell a lot on AVS, you would think he would have the courtesy to at least be a paying member.  Anyway, I am not trying to steer people away from buying from him, but steer people away from buying this bonded crap. Someone told me the difference in price was only like $100.
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paw
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: Arvada, CO
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: |
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At least Bicast was a urethane coated leather split, this stuff is plastic with a small amount of minced leather fibre added as a filler or as a flesh side finish to emulate real leather.
No one is fooling themselves or their friends! it is plastic, call it what it is and enjoy! stainproof, tough, durable, approximately somewhat similar to something else at a lower price! enjoy! and call it plastic for Christs sake.
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesting, thanks.
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Walter
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Kiev Savoie
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:49 am Post subject: |
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And I might add IMHO, A well selected 10 year old leather piece from craigslist beats a brand new vinyl piece any day (and will probably be much cheaper).
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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paw,
Unfortunately, a semi-aniline soaks everything up like a sponge. They have a little protection on them, but it usually wears away quickly. What you get in look and feel is in turn paid for by difficulty in cleaning and maintaining. A good top coated leather is probably a better choice for families and pets. Just remember to get removable cushions. If you damage one cushion, then it is relatively easy to have an upholsterer replace the cover.
| jask wrote: | At least Bicast was a urethane coated leather split, this stuff is plastic with a small amount of minced leather fibre added as a filler or as a flesh side finish to emulate real leather.
No one is fooling themselves or their friends! it is plastic, call it what it is and enjoy! stainproof, tough, durable, approximately somewhat similar to something else at a lower price! enjoy! and call it plastic for Christs sake. |
I and most people I know consider them all the same. Bicast or bonded either has a cheap split hide or an emulsion of leather sawdust for a backing. I wouldn't call it plastic, but it is a thick urethane coating.
Yes, people are being fooled. A lot of people are being told this is real leather. I mean are you going to find any furniture store or manufacturer that is going to come out and say it is synthetic leather. Is it stainproof, tough or durable? No! It might be a little better at stain protection, but you still would need to clean up any spills. It most certainly isn't tough or durable. Roman's new bonded leather may be better, but the stuff in the past doesn't hold up. For people who use their furniture every day, most of my calls are from owners with furniture between one and five years old. A lot of them are around two to three years. Personally, I think people should get more than three years out of a piece of furniture.
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paw
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: Arvada, CO
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | paw,
Unfortunately, a semi-aniline soaks everything up like a sponge. They have a little protection on them, but it usually wears away quickly. What you get in look and feel is in turn paid for by difficulty in cleaning and maintaining. A good top coated leather is probably a better choice for families and pets. Just remember to get removable cushions. If you damage one cushion, then it is relatively easy to have an upholsterer replace the cover.
| jask wrote: | At least Bicast was a urethane coated leather split, this stuff is plastic with a small amount of minced leather fibre added as a filler or as a flesh side finish to emulate real leather.
No one is fooling themselves or their friends! it is plastic, call it what it is and enjoy! stainproof, tough, durable, approximately somewhat similar to something else at a lower price! enjoy! and call it plastic for Christs sake. |
I and most people I know consider them all the same. Bicast or bonded either has a cheap split hide or an emulsion of leather sawdust for a backing. I wouldn't call it plastic, but it is a thick urethane coating.
Yes, people are being fooled. A lot of people are being told this is real leather. I mean are you going to find any furniture store or manufacturer that is going to come out and say it is synthetic leather. Is it stainproof, tough or durable? No! It might be a little better at stain protection, but you still would need to clean up any spills. It most certainly isn't tough or durable. Roman's new bonded leather may be better, but the stuff in the past doesn't hold up. For people who use their furniture every day, most of my calls are from owners with furniture between one and five years old. A lot of them are around two to three years. Personally, I think people should get more than three years out of a piece of furniture. |
Yep, top coated leather is all I would ever do again. It was a semi-expensive lesson.
Spanky Ham
What do you do for a living? I doubt it's "Reality Actor" as you stated in your profile. 
_________________
Aubrey
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| paw wrote: |
Yep, top coated leather is all I would ever do again. It was a semi-expensive lesson.
Spanky Ham
What do you do for a living? I doubt it's "Reality Actor" as you stated in your profile. |
No, it's true. He's the host of "America's Next Top Upholsterer". It's on Showtime, so it's a little obscure.
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:25 am Post subject: |
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I like my cloth recliners much better than my leather recliners, and my brother's micro-suede couch is better again (you cannot stain it either).
The leather is too cold.
Leather is just a big, expensive, wank.....and cows die for it. Ok, I have leather shoes, but you can get a lot more shoes out of a dead cow than couches.
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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When I read the thread topic I got flashbacks of the wife and wristcuffs. 
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Trust no one. Absolutely no one. Advice of the board.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Damn, I really was hoping this thread was about bondage and leather and was just a type-o 
_________________
Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | Damn, I really was hoping this thread was about bondage and leather and was just a type-o |
Nope - it's type-o negative.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | | Damn, I really was hoping this thread was about bondage and leather and was just a type-o |
Nope - it's type-o negative. |
Are you positive?
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CRT.
HD done right!
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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One atom says glumly to another, "I've lost an electron."
The other atom says "Are you sure??"
"Yup. I'm positive."
Ba-dum-bump kshhhh! 
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Boy, how low can you go, I can't imagine any lower than,
Sub atomic humor. 
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Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:04 am Post subject: |
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It is bonded not bondage. Bondage is when my German mistress ties me up and spanks my .............. Ummm, nevermind.
| paw wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | paw,
Unfortunately, a semi-aniline soaks everything up like a sponge. They have a little protection on them, but it usually wears away quickly. What you get in look and feel is in turn paid for by difficulty in cleaning and maintaining. A good top coated leather is probably a better choice for families and pets. Just remember to get removable cushions. If you damage one cushion, then it is relatively easy to have an upholsterer replace the cover.
| jask wrote: | At least Bicast was a urethane coated leather split, this stuff is plastic with a small amount of minced leather fibre added as a filler or as a flesh side finish to emulate real leather.
No one is fooling themselves or their friends! it is plastic, call it what it is and enjoy! stainproof, tough, durable, approximately somewhat similar to something else at a lower price! enjoy! and call it plastic for Christs sake. |
I and most people I know consider them all the same. Bicast or bonded either has a cheap split hide or an emulsion of leather sawdust for a backing. I wouldn't call it plastic, but it is a thick urethane coating.
Yes, people are being fooled. A lot of people are being told this is real leather. I mean are you going to find any furniture store or manufacturer that is going to come out and say it is synthetic leather. Is it stainproof, tough or durable? No! It might be a little better at stain protection, but you still would need to clean up any spills. It most certainly isn't tough or durable. Roman's new bonded leather may be better, but the stuff in the past doesn't hold up. For people who use their furniture every day, most of my calls are from owners with furniture between one and five years old. A lot of them are around two to three years. Personally, I think people should get more than three years out of a piece of furniture. |
Yep, top coated leather is all I would ever do again. It was a semi-expensive lesson.
Spanky Ham
What do you do for a living? I doubt it's "Reality Actor" as you stated in your profile. |
Yeah, I deal with leather.
I don't think it was that bad of a lesson. The great thing about unfinished leather is that it has the look and feel that people associate with leather. The bigger thing for me is that it acclimates temperature wise much quicker than finished leather. You don't get that cold 'I just sat on the toilet' or that hot 'I just touched the stove' feeling.
I had a customer yesterday that paid $2k for a bicast couch. After telling her that I thought it was bicast, she showed me a swatch from underneath the couch. It was real leather, so I thought the couch was as well. Then I started working on it and realized that they it was bicast and they had just put a swatch of real leather on the bottom. Nice trick.
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Nice trick, that's such BS, there should be a law against that kind of crap.
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Walter
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | I like my cloth recliners much better than my leather recliners, and my brother's micro-suede couch is better again (you cannot stain it either).
The leather is too cold.
Leather is just a big, expensive, wank.....and cows die for it. Ok, I have leather shoes, but you can get a lot more shoes out of a dead cow than couches. |
I am not going to disagree with you about fabric. For many that is a personal decision. Finished leather does have the problem of being to hot or cold depending on the temperature. As for cows dieing for it, that is a misnomer. The truth is that leather is more of a by-product of the meat industry. If you want to save cows, then people have to cut back on their hamburgers and steaks.
| WTS wrote: | | Nice trick, that's such BS, there should be a law against that kind of crap. |
There should be, but I have kind of become numb to a lot of this. I guess this is what happens when you spend a lot of time in Scamiami.
I believe England has a law against calling bicast a leather.
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paw
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: Arvada, CO
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: |
I don't think it was that bad of a lesson. The great thing about unfinished leather is that it has the look and feel that people associate with leather. The bigger thing for me is that it acclimates temperature wise much quicker than finished leather. You don't get that cold 'I just sat on the toilet' or that hot 'I just touched the stove' feeling.
I had a customer yesterday that paid $2k for a bicast couch. After telling her that I thought it was bicast, she showed me a swatch from underneath the couch. It was real leather, so I thought the couch was as well. Then I started working on it and realized that they it was bicast and they had just put a swatch of real leather on the bottom. Nice trick. |
Yeah, We've got many years usage out of the leather. Starting with 2 young kids who are now teenagers. Though it hasn't looked good for several years now. I hate to send the $$ to replace it.
It does warm to touch rather quickly.
I'd be super pissed if a manufacturer pulled that trick. 
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Aubrey
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