CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[Curt Palme]

I inherited a DWIN 700 locally, and they have a really nice rack of audio equipment, in a pullout Middle Atlantic rack, etc. A very nice install. Well, like everyone else, they are switching to digital, and want a receiver with HDMI switching. I recommended a Denon piece that he was already looking at, and he wants to know what his Rotel stuff is worth on the used market. I know without HDMI switching, the value has dropped like a stone, but it's still nice equipment.

I don't really need it, but might go for it if the price is right. He has:

RSP 980 preamp
RDA 980 AC3 accessory


I'll email him for the rest, there's power amps that match the above units, c/w custom rack shelves to house all of the items.

Thanks!

[Curt Palme]

I inherited a DWIN 700 locally, and they have a really nice rack of audio equipment, in a pullout Middle Atlantic rack, etc. A very nice install. Well, like everyone else, they are switching to digital, and want a receiver with HDMI switching. I recommended a Denon piece that he was already looking at, and he wants to know what his Rotel stuff is worth on the used market. I know without HDMI switching, the value has dropped like a stone, but it's still nice equipment.

I don't really need it, but might go for it if the price is right. He has:

RSP 980 preamp
RDA 980 AC3 accessory


I'll email him for the rest, there's power amps that match the above units, c/w custom rack shelves to house all of the items.

Thanks!

[draganm]

not worth much, that pre-amp is 10 years old. A buddy of mine just sold one + matching 5 channel amp for $450. on e-bay. He replaced them both with a new Marantz SR5003 receiver and say's it blows awy the old rotel stuff.
Personally, I always thoguht the Rotel stuff was OK but oversold. It was really mediocre quality electronics packaged in a nicer case and sold through hi-fi shops as entry level gear.

[ecrabb]

Me, too. A local hifi shop I frequented always pushed Rotel, and it always seemed really overpriced for what it was. Buying low-end "hifi" gear just doesn't make sense to me. Higher-end mid-fi gear for the same price makes more sense to me.

Plus, it always makes me think of this...



SC

[draganm]

[ecrabb]

[emdawgz1]

[emdawgz1]

[Curt Palme]

I swear when I strike it rich, I'll build a room that's acoustically perfect, and I'll fly all you guys that claim to be able to hear differences between equipment up, and it will be double or nothing when I prove all of you wrong.

My claim is that you can't hear the difference between one 100 watt per channel amplifier to another, assuming the signal chain is set flat.

From a build quality, I'd consider Rotel to be better than NAD, although NAD always had the lowest THD on our service bench back when I had a repair shop. It typically was 0.01%-0.02, where other stuff typically was 0.05. I still say you can't hear that difference, as the human ear usually can't hear under 3% THD, and the typical speaker puts out 0.5% THD.

[Curt Palme]

I swear when I strike it rich, I'll build a room that's acoustically perfect, and I'll fly all you guys that claim to be able to hear differences between equipment up, and it will be double or nothing when I prove all of you wrong.

My claim is that you can't hear the difference between one 100 watt per channel amplifier to another, assuming the signal chain is set flat.

From a build quality, I'd consider Rotel to be better than NAD, although NAD always had the lowest THD on our service bench back when I had a repair shop. It typically was 0.01%-0.02, where other stuff typically was 0.05. I still say you can't hear that difference, as the human ear usually can't hear under 3% THD, and the typical speaker puts out 0.5% THD.

[ecrabb]

[draganm]

amps sound different. You can take a given speaker and plot it's frequency and impedance response on a graph. Then, switch out nothing but the 100 watt amp for another 100 watt amp from anther manufacturer and that graph will change. That's why they sound different, it's not voodoo, it can be measured and quantified. It's also why some amps simply don't work with certain speakers, regardless of power output.

[Curt Palme]

Dragan, I've only done the a/bing thing once with two identical speced (OK, well, power anyways), a Bryston 3B and an INter M REF 300.

Retail on the freshly refurbed amp (right from Bryston): $1200. Retail on the Korean made Inter ML: $350.

I built an A/B switch to match input levels on the amp, along with a remote a/b button where the user didn't know what amp was playing (we masked off the LED signal lights), and switched the speaker outputs to the JBL4311s via a 15 amp relay.

The buy that owned the Brystons picked the Inter M 2 out of 3 times. I couldn't hear the difference.

I have read back in a Stereo Review mag from tehe 70s that a Phase Linear 700 couldn't drive some electrostatic speakers properly due to the high output impedance of the amp, and THAT I believe. Having cracked open literally 100s of amps at this point and seeing the same plastic output transistors in many brands, I'd dare ya to do the same test now, in 2009.

I do have the speaker a/b box here. I'm willing to lend it out if it's returned.

[Curt Palme]

Dragan, I've only done the a/bing thing once with two identical speced (OK, well, power anyways), a Bryston 3B and an INter M REF 300.

Retail on the freshly refurbed amp (right from Bryston): $1200. Retail on the Korean made Inter ML: $350.

I built an A/B switch to match input levels on the amp, along with a remote a/b button where the user didn't know what amp was playing (we masked off the LED signal lights), and switched the speaker outputs to the JBL4311s via a 15 amp relay.

The buy that owned the Brystons picked the Inter M 2 out of 3 times. I couldn't hear the difference.

I have read back in a Stereo Review mag from tehe 70s that a Phase Linear 700 couldn't drive some electrostatic speakers properly due to the high output impedance of the amp, and THAT I believe. Having cracked open literally 100s of amps at this point and seeing the same plastic output transistors in many brands, I'd dare ya to do the same test now, in 2009.

I do have the speaker a/b box here. I'm willing to lend it out if it's returned.

[Curt Palme]

Dragan, I've only done the a/bing thing once with two identical speced (OK, well, power anyways), a Bryston 3B and an INter M REF 300.

Retail on the freshly refurbed amp (right from Bryston): $1200. Retail on the Korean made Inter ML: $350.

I built an A/B switch to match input levels on the amp, along with a remote a/b button where the user didn't know what amp was playing (we masked off the LED signal lights), and switched the speaker outputs to the JBL4311s via a 15 amp relay.

The guy that owned the Brystons picked the Inter M 2 out of 3 times. I couldn't hear the difference.

I have read back in a Stereo Review mag from the 70s that a Phase Linear 700 couldn't drive some electrostatic speakers properly due to the high output impedance of the amp, and THAT I believe. Having cracked open literally 100s of amps at this point and seeing the same plastic output transistors in many brands, I'd dare ya to do the same test now, in 2009.

I do have the speaker a/b box here. I'm willing to lend it out if it's returned.

[Curt Palme]

Dragan, I've only done the a/bing thing once with two identical speced (OK, well, power anyways), a Bryston 3B and an INter M REF 300.

Retail on the freshly refurbed amp (right from Bryston): $1200. Retail on the Korean made Inter ML: $350.

I built an A/B switch to match input levels on the amp, along with a remote a/b button where the user didn't know what amp was playing (we masked off the LED signal lights), and switched the speaker outputs to the JBL4311s via a 15 amp relay.

The guy that owned the Brystons picked the Inter M 2 out of 3 times. I couldn't hear the difference.

I have read back in a Stereo Review mag from the 70s that a Phase Linear 700 couldn't drive some electrostatic speakers properly due to the high output impedance of the amp, and THAT I believe. Having cracked open literally 100s of amps at this point and seeing the same plastic output transistors in many brands, I'd dare ya to do the same test now, in 2009.

I do have the speaker a/b box here. I'm willing to lend it out if it's returned.

[Mark_A_W]

Marantz is consumer crap.

Rotel is decent gear. Half of my amps are Rotel, and they are great. But Curt is right, all decent gear sounds the same. My rotel gear is reliable, and has ample current - they don't 'misbehave".


Not that I have a once flagship Rotel Pre Pro RSP-985 for sale or anything

[Tom.W]

One of the best CD players I own is a Rotel. Unfortunately Only 37 of these custom CD players where sold in the US as I remember...

[emdawgz1]

[quote="ecrabb"]

[dturco]

I can't speak to the amps sounding different. I have a Bryston 4B-SST. I can however state that to my ears a pre-pro can and did sound really different. I first had a Krell showcase pre-pro in the system. Now I am going to use the dreaded terms of Bright, sh*t no, I mean harsh sounding is being kind. Traded it back during the allotted time frame and got my Arcam AV-9 which has a smooth sound, relaxed, mellow, laid back, .... OK thats a little overboard but it sounded much better to me. Same audio chain as before, same cables, same amp, same room,

And the argument shall continue.

[emdawgz1]

Components sound DIFFERENTLY.

Some may think its an illusion. But i think there are audible differences.

[dturco]

[emdawgz1]

[Curt Palme]

Having looked inside many a Bryston, I can say that they are well built, and their customer support is stellar. With regards to the unit above, it came out of a night club that had sat idle for about 7 years (attached to a hotel). We took the three 3Bs on trade when we redid their pub sound system. THey were all grungy and covered in nicotine. My sales guy took two off me, I got one. I powered it up, cleaned it, it worked fine. My sales guy sent his to Bryston for an overhaul.

They called him 10 days later, saying they'd done all the mods to the amps since that revision was manufactured (at the time his amps were 18 years old, 2 years left in the warranty), they offered to change the main filter caps at cost, installed new power switches, and also offered to change out the stained faceplates for ones in much better shape. He agreed to everything, and got the amps back in factory original boxes with a hand checked paper stating the specs of the amps. Total cost incl shipping to him? $140 CDN ($120 USD).

So, killer service, but if you dissect the amp, there's not $1200 worth of materials in there, even including the high labor costs in Canada. I'd say the amp with a 3 year warranty should have sold for under $1K. So really, what you're paying for is at least one 'free' trip to the manufacturer in that 20 years. With the amount of Brystons that I've repaired here, within the 20 year warranty, they also expect a lot of customers to not send the amps back in case of failure based on the hassle of boxing them up and waiting 3 weeks for a turnaround.

Good amps? Yes. Great service? Yes. Do they fail like any other amp? Yes.

[Curt Palme]

Having looked inside many a Bryston, I can say that they are well built, and their customer support is stellar. With regards to the unit above, it came out of a night club that had sat idle for about 7 years (attached to a hotel). We took the three 3Bs on trade when we redid their pub sound system. THey were all grungy and covered in nicotine. My sales guy took two off me, I got one. I powered it up, cleaned it, it worked fine. My sales guy sent his to Bryston for an overhaul.

They called him 10 days later, saying they'd done all the mods to the amps since that revision was manufactured (at the time his amps were 18 years old, 2 years left in the warranty), they offered to change the main filter caps at cost, installed new power switches, and also offered to change out the stained faceplates for ones in much better shape. He agreed to everything, and got the amps back in factory original boxes with a hand checked paper stating the specs of the amps. Total cost incl shipping to him? $140 CDN ($120 USD).

So, killer service, but if you dissect the amp, there's not $1200 worth of materials in there, even including the high labor costs in Canada. I'd say the amp with a 3 year warranty should have sold for under $1K. So really, what you're paying for is at least one 'free' trip to the manufacturer in that 20 years. With the amount of Brystons that I've repaired here, within the 20 year warranty, they also expect a lot of customers to not send the amps back in case of failure based on the hassle of boxing them up and waiting 3 weeks for a turnaround.

Good amps? Yes. Great service? Yes. Do they fail like any other amp? Yes.