CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

dracoskeeper · Joined: 22 Jul 2009 Posts: 4 Location: Near Chicago

I am the OP of the Gary Murrell-ruined my Denon 9000 thread at AVS. Yes my first interest is 2 channel audio and the only reason that I sank more into the SDI mod was I only have a 52" 1080P LCD and SD DVD collection so I hoped to do the scaler/sdi until I get a larger theater. This modded Denon with my Moscode and Bez linestage was a match made in heaven.
Obviously I didn't do diligent research on Gary before trusting him with my 9000. I only trolled over there when reading about scalers and he put on a pretty good show. I now realize he is what we call a internet parrot, he just repeats information he reads on the web and repeats it on forums hoping people think he really knows what he's talking about,MY BAD!
Could someone here explain why some of the members over there are ridiculing the other work/mods done on my components. If they don't have personal experience with whomever did the work how can they bash it. The Upgrade Co. has a unbelievable reputation and quite frankly I don't care what they did inside my player I just know it sounded much better. And on top of that it was returned and working in my system in less than two weeks. They did ten times the work of an SDI module install and it took 4 1/2 months less than Gary took to butcher my player!
I have a feeling the only reason he sent it to JVB was to get another party involved to deflect blame from his hack job. I will post the original emails between the two of us here and on the other audio forums I belong to so that hopefully any search regarding his wood shed shop leads people to see how he operates.

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:20 am Post subject:

Thanks for posting here. I saw your new thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1164147

With the tweaker type of mods, you're getting into sticky territory. Once camp (myself included) thinks that if you can't quantitatively measure an improvement, then you won't hear the modification that was done, be it an amp, speaker, source device, whatever.

The other camp says that audio and video is as much subjective as it is measurable, and just because you can't measure the improvement that a tweak does (foil around wire, green felt around CDs, cork dots on the walls of listening rooms, etc), doesn't mean you won't hear a difference.

There's a guy that used to post actively on the >$20K forum, Valhalla PC. He was a kid, but the king of tweakers, here's an example:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=800063&highlight=

Do a search for his Youtube links, they are hysterical.

Anyways, this kid is dead serious with his 'findings' yet the rest of us laugh at him.

He's an extreme example, but to me, the foil around the AC wiring in your pictures is not only useless, it's a shock hazard if the foil ever comes loose and hits the hot lead of the AC power cord. No electrical safety inspector would ever allow such modifications to occur.

AS for other audio mods, as I said, I'm very skeptical that a small operation such as the Upgrade Co can make substantial improvements to a high end, well thought out CD player, but I'll also be the first to admit that I have never done an A/B comparison between a stock and a hotrodded player.

I will rebut that statement though by saying that unless you're specifically A/Bing a stock and modded player instantaneously, there's no way your ear can differentiate between your newly modded unit when your system has been unused for 2 weeks. Your brain's memory is simply not good enough to retain subtle changes for that length of time. Someone told me long ago that the brain has hearing 'memory' of 7 seconds. I posted that on avs, and someone came back at me with 'well then, why do you recognize someone's voice on the end of the telephone if you haven't talked to them for weeks?'.

So there's no good answer. There's posts ad nauseum regarding double blind testing in the high end forum. They make for an interesting read.

I will say that I have A/Bed a $200 CD player vs a $600 NAD one with an external $1200 DAC converter, and the more expensive setup sounded better. I was A/Bing with identical CDs and the same amp/speakers, and you COULD hear the difference. I do think a lot of tweaks are 'out there', costing lots with (to me) negligible results, but if you think/say you can hear the difference, then far be it from me to critique you.

I will stand firm in my belief that standard good quality 14 gauge speaker cable at 25 cents a foot sounds no different than any esoteric brand out there. Smile

I do also now deem this site a Gary Murrell free zone. If anyone is good with Photoshop, we could use a logo. Wink

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:34 am Post subject:

PS: After a bit of searching, I found his Myspace profile. While it's set to private, you can click on his pictures. Go look at the 'mutilations' page first to see his quality soldering jobs, then go look at the 'audio' pictures.

http://www.myspace.com/extreme_tweaking

I think he mentored Gary...

waterlily · Joined: 29 Aug 2008 Posts: 44

Oh... my... dog...those pics, it is like a train wreck where you see it happening but cannot look away

my eyes... the pain ...

Last but not least:

Mood: sore

Shocked

dracoskeeper · Joined: 22 Jul 2009 Posts: 4 Location: Near Chicago

I too shared your skepticism of mods until I rebuilt my first 2.3 TL crossover and left the other speaker stock, while burning in the components I also decided to do some cabinet dampening and replace all the internal wiring and eliminate the connectors and solder everything. The difference between the two sides was noticeable bass was quicker,tighter and the mid range much cleaner and liquid and the highs were crystal clear. I had three different friends over and didn't tell them what I had been up to and they all thought something was wrong with the stock speaker. I also am fortunate to have a stock Moscode and a modded one. The difference is not as dramatic but it is obviously apparent. Especially with bass and the silent passages which are absolutely dead. I was also never a believer in high end speaker cables having been happy with my blue jeans for years. But a little while ago the collector that I got the modded Moscode from let me audition some Discovery Signature speaker cables. I left the BJ cable on the left channel and the Discovery on the right channel. Halfway through the first song I got up to check my interconnects going to my amp because I was hearing so much "more" from the right side. Now I was sold on speaker cables but the only reason I got these was he gave them to me for less than 20% of what they cost.
As for the 9000 I think the foil tape is as much cosmetic as shielding. But that wasn't what I paid for, I talked with Dave about his upgrade and what components he used and I'd already owned it for four years and I love the build quality of the unit. If you ever open one up and really look at the quality and layout you may see why I wanted to get more miles out of it. When I got it back after the upgrade the first thing that I noticed was I got the same volume as before but my setting on my pre/pro was 2 steps lower than I normally set it. No I did not have another to do a blind test as they are hard to find and yes I'm sure part of the improvement was because I know what the upgrade cost! If I have something done to my car that I've saved for and then finally gotten at least I can quantify it on the dyno, but that is not always the case sometimes you have to trust the seat of your pants.
I also have friends on the Polk forum who have talked to Mathew at Polkfest and and he said that there is no way you can afford to mass produce speakers with caps that cost 4-30$ each and keep the price competitive when you can get them for 30-80 cents from Mexico.

WTS · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1276 Location: Calgary

I firmly beleive and have for over 25 years that certain mods/tweaks do make a difference.

And no, 14 gauge stranded doesn't sound as good as high end cable, although good ole 14 gauge house wire doesn't sound bad and it's a lot closer to the high end stuff than 14 stranded.

DOn't forget that the sound will be limited by the worst piece in the chain. So many of these tweaks may be masked by one piece or another in the chain.

I've been or should I say had been designing/building and modding high end audiophile gear since the early 80s and I have heard many many comparisons and there are a lot of merits to some of them, and then on the other hand there are a lot of the snake oil products too that one needs to watch out for.

**kal** · Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:37 pm Post subject:

David_Web · Joined: 02 May 2007 Posts: 418 Location: Sweden

Wow that is painful to watch.

I have no problem doing stuff proper where it matters and makes sense. But that is just ridiculous.

emdawgz1 · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7949

He's buying Nordost Valhalla and .....

He's a bigger moron than even I thought. And believe me i thought he was a moron!

It's a wonder he hasnt burned his trailer down.

But i cant figure why he's using all of the foam wrap?? Whats up w/ that?!?!?

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:10 pm Post subject:

It's really too bad his Youtube channel is private. He had a bunch of videos there showing his 'experiments, complete with whispered audio, grunting, and whatever. Very low budget horror flick-esque.

Then there was the video of him eating Mac and cheese because he'd spent all his money on cabling and ERS paper.

lexx21 · Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 119

I remember reading a debate between some "authoritative" high end audio mag editors about a product that was touted as making your amp sound better by re-arranging and aligning the electrons in the AC line before it entered your power supply. This device cost about $300, came in a very handsome wood case, and at no added cost even had a digital clock face on the front of the product. You simply plugged it into the wall and PRESTO.... instantly re-aligned electrons so your sh*t HAD to sound better.

The only problem was that this product was simply a very high priced digital clock. That's it.

On another occasion I went to this high end audio store (which amazingly is still in business) to look at their consignment room. There was a guy in there buying something called "tip toes", which were metal cones that you were supposed to put under your turn table to isolate it from vibrations. At the time, these suckers were $20 each. This guy was buying a couple dozen of them because he said that it worked so well that he wanted to put them under his amp, speakers, tape deck, etc..... Anyway, I couldn't help but be a smart a$$ and said "yeah, I bought some of those". He said "REALLY! How did you like them?" I said "I put them under my Nikon and it took a better picture". If looks could kill...... lol

Curt is right about *most* upgrade tweaks to audio components and the specialty add on crap. It is VERY subjective. If you spend enough dough on something, you will most likely convince yourself that it does make it sound better rather than face the fact that you blew a ton of cash you could have spent on beer and women. Spending tons of cash on uber "high end" speaker wire and such really doesn't make a lot of sense. Sure, you could probably SEE the difference if you used a spectrum analyzer, but you sure won't hear the difference. I would seriously doubt that even a dog could hear the difference.

Take for instance when the high end audio mags were trashing Carver amps because they said that it had too much THD. The amount of distortion in a Carver amp you would NEVER be able to discern to begin with. However, things like this are still, and amazingly, seriously debated in that community. Most of us who have ever listened to Anna Gotta Davita through Mind Blower speakers in a crapped out van .... well..... our hearing isn't what it used to be anyway.

Just my 2 cents worth. I'll go back to listening to my ebay tx-nr901 and my floor model Infinity speakers and enjoy the money I saved for boobies and beer Very Happy

ecrabb · Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject:

Here's another entertaining VallhallaPC thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=741626

John, it's not foam wrap - it's "ERS paper". Paper or cloth with metal fibers embedded... Hence the near-fire in Valhalla's photo above.

http://www.stillpoints.us/Stillpoints/ers_fabric.html

Here's a review (snicker, snicker):
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/ers_cloth_e.html

I can't believe people pay hard-earned money for this stuff. Actual mods - say replacing caps or resistors or wiring - is one thing. Wrapping paper with embedded metal fibers around a component that's IN A METAL FRICKIN' CASE?!!!?!?!!??

And now you know why they're called "audiofools".

SC

perisoft · Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 2920 Location: Ithaca, NY

Every time I see stuff like this, I can't help but wonder why I bother busting my ass in a legitimate business... Neutral

emdawgz1 · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7949

THIS JUST IN!

JOHNCO DOES IT AGAIN!!! Shocked

FROM THE COMPANY THAT BROUGHT YOU SINGLE STRAND CABLING, AND INTELLIGENT FLAT CABLES COMES THE GREATEST TECH ADVANCE OF THE NEW MILLENIA!!!!!

forget ERS papaer here's

JRS PAPER!!!!

It is able to shield your equipment from all adverse radiation and allow only the good stuff to come thru.

Dr. E. Emmett Brown is preparing his white paper now explaining this REVOLOUTION to the world. But dont hesitate! Buy yours today! Wrap your audio, video, computer, All your equipment in this JRS paper and be amazed by the improvement!

Quantities limited! Order Now!

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject:

Nice one John! Say aren't those made in West Korea? Wink

I use to play the cable swapping game. I didn't notice a huge difference with the speaker cable swaps but I could hear it with the RCA line level interconnects.

I remember being at a local HiFi shop a few years back. They had Shaka stones on their speaker cables and swore that they aligned the polarity of the electrons in the speaker cables. Uhhh yeah... I'll take a dozen.... Laughing

**kal** · Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject:

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

[quote="kal"]

lexx21 · Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 119

Crab... I just read the "review". Oh.....my.....GOD! Talk about wishful thinking! This guy is the kind of fruit basket that keeps those folks in business.

One thing he mentioned in his "review" though.... burn in. Don't these idiots know that "burn in" is only to verify that a piece of equipment will not crap out after a few hours? Talking solid state here, not valves or crt. It either works or it doesn't. It's not going to sound better with age. A cap will either hold a charge without leaking or it won't. A resister is going to be accurate to withing it's spec of 5%, 10%, etc.. or it won't. A semiconductor will either freaking work or it won't. ARGH! And he wanted to burn in a piece of cloth??? Oh yeah, it might stop being cloth after 10 hours. In fact it might just turn into a pony or something. Wouldn't want that to happen in our cd player would we? Better burn that puppy in or we could be in for the 7 plagues! Never know WHAT magical sh*t might happen if we stop believing the hype.

Rant over for now.

ps. As I said though, I'm not talking about crt projectors. I am talking about stereo amps, cd players, etc.... crt + mod = good. There the results are VERY tangible.

lexx21 · Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 119

Speaker cable risers... hmm..... a trip to home depot for a staple gun. Staple that puppy to the wall, problem solved.