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Mr. Green
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary
TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | I think it was Chip who said one of NEC's had the best colors he has seen to date. I h=just cant remember which one. But ten again Chip uses an........
Athanasios |
Now don't get nasty on me now. It was a pro calibrated 9PG Plus with brand new tubes and the tinted red and green lenses. After installing red and green c-elements in the 4600HD, the color is damn close. The marquee may have a slight edge over the 4600 in resolution ability but the AmPro kicks the $hit out of it in color reproduction.
Where's all the topless sun bathers??? |
My NEC 9PG+ has reasonably minty tubes (9's anyways). It has the color filtered lenses. No pro calibration though.
Without the Rec C element on my marquee, reds are more dark orange. Having said that, my Marquee tubes are nowhere near mint, but the colors are noticeably less vibrant than the nec. As I said in my original answer to Mark, If I could move my NEC colored lenses over, I'd be a happy boy. I don't think it's possible, but I might try for giggles one day.
I agree with stefuel, if you want to sell us on the place, we want to see the merchandise <boing, boing, boing...>
_________________
You can be young only once but, you can be immature forever.
Current Projector Marquee9501LC with PS3 (BLu-Ray) at 1080P LOVE IT! Screen is an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). (also own a NEC 9PG+)
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Mr. Green
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary
TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | Mr. Green wrote: | | Mark_A_W wrote: | | Ok, going from a NEC, how are the colours? |
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No offense, but I and most don't consider the PG the standard for the 8" AC. The biggest difference for me is going from AC to LC. Others don't think it is that big of a deal. Honestly, this really becomes a subjective opinion on how big of a difference one sees between the different models. |
None taken, but I think you are taking that reply to Mark to be my proclamation that the NEC has the best colour ever. I have only ever viewed one other working projector (Barco 801s), so other than the 3 projectors I've ever viewed, I don't have anything else to reference it to.
He was asking me my feelings about colours going from my 9PG+ to my 9501LC and that's what I told him. I went from AC to LC too and without the red C element in the Marquee, the NEC wins, but as I said "Not by much". It was my opinion regarding my 2 projectors. I have no doubt that with the elusive Red C element in place, the Marquee will match or outperform the NEC. I like many things about the Marquee way more than the NEC.
Does that clarify a bit more?
_________________
You can be young only once but, you can be immature forever.
Current Projector Marquee9501LC with PS3 (BLu-Ray) at 1080P LOVE IT! Screen is an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). (also own a NEC 9PG+)
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I went from AC to LC too and without the red C element in the Marquee, the NEC wins |
Possibly you had your red driving Harder in the Nec than the Marquee! More saturated does not mean better.
The red Primary is not that far off on Marquees, green is the one really needing corrected. Having an Accurate Green Primary is the most important . Besides You truly cannot compare two projectors unless you have had them colour calibrated.
How does this measure on your screen ? http://www.sput.nl/hardware/display-test/red.html
Bruce
Ps Congratulations on your 9", and having a Baby all in the same thread .
pPS I might have a red C element for you
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Mr. Green
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary
TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce 09 wrote: | | Quote: | | I went from AC to LC too and without the red C element in the Marquee, the NEC wins |
Possibly you had your red driving Harder in the Nec than the Marquee! More saturated does not mean better.
The red Primary is not that far off on Marquees, green is the one really needing corrected. Having an Accurate Green Primary is the most important . Besides You truly cannot compare two projectors unless you have had them colour calibrated.
How does this measure on your screen ? http://www.sput.nl/hardware/display-test/red.html
Bruce
Ps Congratulations on your 9", and having a Baby all in the same thread .
pPS I might have a red C element for you |
I guess the think I noticed most was the skin tones. On the NEC, they looked more natural to my eye, but anyone that chimes in and says the marquee should be as good as the NEC, I'll have to cede to anyone with experience. I personally thought it was just guys not wanting a little PG+ to have anything better than the big 9" LC units out there. If the colored lenses on the NEC's weren't good, nobody would be using Joust mods to put them on their marquees though now would they.
I'll have to see what I can do with that red screen thing. I dont have a PC anywhere near the projector right now. I gave up with HTPC when I first got the NEC. I need to get a new camera for screen shots though.
Thanks, it's definitely been a good few months for us. Karen is really happy with CRT and is happy we could get a good unit off of Curt. I can't wait to add a moome card, get new tubes, do the bellows and add the red c element.
Let me know on the C-Element, that would be great.
_________________
You can be young only once but, you can be immature forever.
Current Projector Marquee9501LC with PS3 (BLu-Ray) at 1080P LOVE IT! Screen is an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). (also own a NEC 9PG+)
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I guess the think I noticed most was the skin tones. On the NEC, they looked more natural to my eye, but anyone that chimes in and says the marquee should be as good as the NEC, I'll have to cede to anyone with experience. I personally thought it was just guys not wanting a little PG+ to have anything better than the big 9" LC units out there. If the colored lenses on the NEC's weren't good, nobody would be using Joust mods to put them on their marquees though now would they. Wink
I'll have to see what I can do with that red screen thing. I dont have a PC anywhere near the projector right now. I gave up with HTPC when I first got the NEC. I need to get a new camera for screen shots though. |
These numbers are Gary is showing here a little different than I have usually got from Marquees , but they are close.
Want accuracy or red ???
| Quote: | | If the colored lenses on the NEC's weren't good, nobody would be using Joust mods to put them on their marquees though now would they. |
Red push is the most common set up people do by eye because it looks good , Want accuracy or red ???
From Gary
| Quote: | | From these measurements you'd think the green is the biggest contributor to improved colors with color filtering. But it may be that our eyes are extremely sensitive to color variances in red, so the slight red error may cause more visually apparent difference than you might guess. I'm not sure. |
The green filtered Lens would have had as much as the red lens in "correcting the orange"
| garyfritz wrote: | | Joust wrote: | I'd rather you put your entire post here. The results are great. I'm glad I did it and now i know the technical reasons why  |
OK, if somebody is too lazy to click on the link  here's the post:
Lately the color-filtered HD144 and HD145 lenses have become really popular, and for good reason. They're supposed to have better optics, better corner focus, etc., than the stock HD8b's in Marquee 8500's. More importantly (IMHO anyway), Marquees and other non-color-filtered projectors really benefit from the color filtering in these lenses. In my opinion the stock 8500's colors are very dull, very lifeless. If that's what you're used to, you may not notice a problem. But if you switch from a color-filtered projector like an NEC XG to an 8500, you'll notice a big difference. I recently put a set of HD145's in my Marquee 8500 and the improvement is dramatic.
And it turns out there's a VERY inexpensive way to try out color-filtering to see if it's worth it to you.
Unfortunately my camera is a cheap digital and can't capture the differences in colors that my eye can see. But I have a colorimeter, and I can MEASURE the difference.
Some background: the CIE diagram (below) represents the colors that the human eye can see. You can represent any of these colors with an x,y coordinate, which is what the colorimeter measures. The triangle represents the three "primaries" (red, green, blue) defined by the SMPTE C standard, which (I think) is used for North American broadcast and DVDs. It's also very close to the standards used by HDTV and PAL/SECAM.
If you want to represent an image accurately, your projector must have the SAME primaries as the standard used in your signal source -- SMPTE C if you're in North America, very close to SMPTE C elsewhere. In other words, your CRT phosphors must emit exactly the same color as the SMPTE C color. If they don't, your colors will be wrong.
Why? Think of your projector as a blind paint-by-number artist. He's got 3 pots of paint (R, G, B), and he just paints whatever color the signal tells him. If the video signal says to paint pure green, he goes to his green pot and uses that. If the signal has a yellow color, he mixes red and green together.
Now imagine what would happen if somebody swiped his green paint and substituted a pot of pink paint. He's a blind painter, so he can't correct for the bad color. Obviously his greens would be wrong; grass would be pink. But ALL colors that included any green would also be wrong. Since all colors except pure red, pure blue, and shades of pure magenta include SOME green, this means that ALL other colors will be wrong.
What about the Marquee (and Barco and similar non-color-filtered projectors)? Obviously the green tube isn't pink, but the phosphors in the CRTs don't quite match the SMPTE C standard. You may have heard of "yellowish greens and orangish reds" with the Marquees. That's why.
There's nothing you can do (tuning-wise, e.g. setting your grayscale) to change the projector's primary colors. Those are just the colors that the phosphors produce. However you CAN modify the primaries optically -- changing the color that actually hits the screen -- by putting a colored filter in the optical path. That's what the HD144's/145's do, and you can also do it with inexpensive colored gel filters.
I measured my 8500 with its stock HD8b lenses, with stock lenses & colored gels, and with color-filtered HD145's. For the "colored gel" tests I used 3 Calcolor gel filters: 4430 (light green), 4460 (med green), 4690 (dark red).
I measured the color coordinates of the primaries, which are affected only by the phosphors and the filters. I displayed a 100 IRE window and turned off the other 2 CRTs so I was measuring the pure color of a single tube. I placed the colorimeter sensor in front of the screen, pointed at the projector so the color of the screen didn't affect the measurements. (Caveat: I don't know when this Minolta TV2150 colorimeter was last calibrated. I'm hoping it's reasonably accurate.)
This picture shows the results:
As you can see, blue was already pretty close to the correct color, just a bit more "vivid" than it needs to be. That (and blue's limited light output) is why color-filtered lenses use a clear lens for blue -- it's already good enough.
Green was WAY off, in a very "yellowish" direction. The first (4430) filter moved it a bit, and the second (4460) moved it a bit more. The HD145 lens moves it almost exactly onto the SMPTE C value, just where you want it.
I was a bit surprised by the uncorrected red measurement. With all the "orangish red" comments you hear, I expected it to be above the SMPTE C point and to the left, in a really "orangish" area. To my surprise it was actually pretty close to the correct color, certainly much closer than the green. The HD145's and the red gel moved it farther out into the "intense red" area, but kept the right shade of red.
From these measurements you'd think the green is the biggest contributor to improved colors with color filtering. But it may be that our eyes are extremely sensitive to color variances in red, so the slight red error may cause more visually apparent difference than you might guess. I'm not sure. This picture (a Marquee red CRT with a red filter over one half of the tube face) sure makes it look like the filter makes a huge visual difference, even if the measurement shows a small change.
So, enough geekery, what does this look like on the screen? I found skintones to be much more lifelike. Greens and reds are much more vivid and beautiful. The opening scene of LOTR:FOTR (with Frodo reading in the woods) seemed really dull without filtering, but it's *G*R*E*E*N* and beautiful (not artificially green, just vividly alive-looking) with filtering. The Peony Pavillion scene in "House of Flying Daggers" is stunning.
Here are the numbers:
The ideal SMPTE C RGB primaries:
R: .630 .340
G: .310 .595
B: .155 .070
My 8500's measured primaries without filters:
R: .647 .346
G: .352 .566
B: .133 .051
My R/G primaries with filters:
R: .668 .327 (with 4690)
G: .326 .588 (with 4430)
G: .312 .615 (with 4460)
My R/G primaries with color-filtered HD145 lenses:
R: .668 .330
G: .304 .588
Have you wanted to add filtered lenses to your projector, but you hesitated because of the cost? A set of HD144's or HD145's will run you somewhere around $200-250 with shipping, and you'll probably need a set of adapter plates (another $250 or so) to mount them on your projector. How do you know if it's worth it?
It's easy to find out, and very cheap. Order some Roscoe Calcolor filters. I found a place on eBay (seller jayplayer) that sold me 3 colors of filters for about $11 delivered, and that was enough to make at least 4 sets of filters. You want 4690 (Dark Red) and 4460 (Medium Green), though you may want to experiment with 4430 (Light Green) or 4660 (Medium Red) as well. Cut a piece of filter to fit on the front of your CRTs. Remove the R & G lenses, clean off the front glass of the CRTs with a good glass cleaner and a lint-free cloth, and mist a little cleaner onto the filter. Stick it onto the CRT glass and work out any bubbles. (You probably want to cover it with a tissue while you do this, so you don't get fingerprints on it.) The surface tension will keep the filter attached for a LONG time, without adding any new surfaces to increase reflections or haloes. Re-mount your lenses.
Then (**** VERY IMPORTANT ****) rebalance your grayscale to D6500 !! The colors will look TERRIBLE until you adjust your CRT for the filters. You'll have to drive your red and green a bit harder to make up for the light lost in the filters. (You'd have to do the same with the HD145's.)
But once you do, I think you'll see a dramatic difference! Pick a movie you know well that has colorful scenes. Watch it before you add the filters, and again afterwards. I'll bet you'll like the change!
If you want to go with a budget solution, you may decide to just leave the gels in there. The colors are fine, and it's dirt cheap. If you're happy with it, you've just improved your colors for almost nothing! Only problem: the gels are designed for tinting lighting, not for optical clarity. You may think the image is a bit softer, or you might notice a bit of haze in the image. If so, then you might decide the sharper HD144/145 lenses & adapters are worth the money.
(Thanks to KennyG, cmjohnson, and others for doing some of the initial research on this!)
Enjoy,
Gary |
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Mr. Green
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary
TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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That's really cool, thanks Bruce. I guess a colorometer will be in my future as well.
I guess I honestly at the end of day, want a color corrected set... If I decide the reds are still too orange or washed out, then I'll change it. I still think the red C will give it that extra "oomph" it needs. I have the green already.
_________________
You can be young only once but, you can be immature forever.
Current Projector Marquee9501LC with PS3 (BLu-Ray) at 1080P LOVE IT! Screen is an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). (also own a NEC 9PG+)
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Mr. Green
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary
TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I forgot. Somewhere around here I have a disk with test patterns including the solid red. I'll see if I can find it. I haven't seen it since our last move.
_________________
You can be young only once but, you can be immature forever.
Current Projector Marquee9501LC with PS3 (BLu-Ray) at 1080P LOVE IT! Screen is an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). (also own a NEC 9PG+)
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. Green wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | Mr. Green wrote: | | Mark_A_W wrote: | | Ok, going from a NEC, how are the colours? |
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No offense, but I and most don't consider the PG the standard for the 8" AC. The biggest difference for me is going from AC to LC. Others don't think it is that big of a deal. Honestly, this really becomes a subjective opinion on how big of a difference one sees between the different models. |
None taken, but I think you are taking that reply to Mark to be my proclamation that the NEC has the best colour ever. I have only ever viewed one other working projector (Barco 801s), so other than the 3 projectors I've ever viewed, I don't have anything else to reference it to.
He was asking me my feelings about colours going from my 9PG+ to my 9501LC and that's what I told him. I went from AC to LC too and without the red C element in the Marquee, the NEC wins, but as I said "Not by much". It was my opinion regarding my 2 projectors. I have no doubt that with the elusive Red C element in place, the Marquee will match or outperform the NEC. I like many things about the Marquee way more than the NEC.
Does that clarify a bit more? |
I was having issues with my internet, so I couldn't elaborate.
I wasn't talking about the colors. Colors can be both subjective and objective. While I would assume most people would want accurate color, there were/are a lot of JVC owners who don't mind the oversaturated colors.
I was refering to the rest of your post where you were implying that it was a huge jump from the PG to the Marquee. I don't have a recent comparison for Bluray, but for 1080i/720p the biggest jump is AC to LC not 8" to 9" at least to me. I will stop here. Honestly, I was just providing a counterpoint so some newbies don't get tube size envy.
Mark,
I don't disagree totally, but you are comparing an Extra to a 751. With cheap prices these days, one can easily get into a good 8" lc. I wouldn't go from a PG to an XG AC (maybe a 852), but one must remember that the electronics are better in the XG.
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Mr. Green
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary
TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 5:45 am Post subject: |
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[/quote] I was refering to the rest of your post where you were implying that it was a huge jump from the PG to the Marquee. I don't have a recent comparison for Bluray, but for 1080i/720p the biggest jump is AC to LC not 8" to 9" at least to me. I will stop here. Honestly, I was just providing a counterpoint so some newbies don't get tube size envy.
[/quote]
I'll stand behind that part. It is a huge jump. Brighter, sharper, ease of use, mods... There's no comparison.
I would also tell people and have many times that the NEC is a great starting projector. These days, I'd hesitate to recommend anything less.
The 9500lc is like the 1209's, cine 9 and G90 something you aspire to unless like a few here, you score a cheap one somewhere. Then again, you can get a PG for a few hundred. It's not often you'll find an LC Marquee under $2,000, so newbies need to consider that too. If you have a budget under $1000 or even $500, then a 9"LC unit isn't something you should look at, get the best that you can afford. I did with the PG and I still love the projector. Is the Marquee LC a big step up?.. Heck yes. Will the PG+ outperforma $2k digital (other than 1080p)? In my opinion - yes. It's all relative. That's why the PG is listed in the intermediate and the 9500lc is listed at the top 5.
_________________
You can be young only once but, you can be immature forever.
Current Projector Marquee9501LC with PS3 (BLu-Ray) at 1080P LOVE IT! Screen is an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). (also own a NEC 9PG+)
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