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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| emdawgz1 wrote: | So are you saying that what limits the XG and the 8500lc is the size of the tube face and the lumen output???  |
How did you derive at that conclusion ?
Limits them more than other 8" or limits them from 9" ?
This what he MP said in summary
| Quote: | fact is, of the four top end CRT projectors manufactured, only two could technically deserve to be labeled High Performance, and that would be the XG and 8500LC. It would be the only two that could technically be 1080P capable.
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Bruce
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce 09 wrote: | | emdawgz1 wrote: | | So are you saying that what limits the XG and the 8500lc is the size of the tube face and the lumen output??? |
How did you derive at that conclusion ?
Limits them more than other 8" or limits them from 9" ?
This what he MP said in summary
| Quote: | fact is, of the four top end CRT projectors manufactured, only two could technically deserve to be labeled High Performance, and that would be the XG and 8500LC. It would be the only two that could technically be 1080P capable.
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Bruce |
I dont think i arrived at a conclusion... I think i asked a QUESTION, made an inquiry, asked for clarification....
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I dont think i arrived at a conclusion... I think i asked a QUESTION, made an inquiry, asked for clarification.... |
I Guess your right , Wrong terminology. It just seemed like an out of the blue question after reading mikes post .
Bruce
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: |
fact is, of the four top end CRT projectors manufactured, only two could technically deserve to be labeled High Performance, and that would be the XG and 8500LC. It would be the only two that could technically be 1080P capable.
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Are you kidding me? The bandwidth on the XG (dual amp neckboards) sucks.
My Xtra had better bandwidth than the XG, or a least as good.
The XG is a better overall package - LC, focus and astig controls are better. But some things are worse. Bandwidth, tendency to streak, "reverse streaking", porch pickiness with tendency to get raster ringing (G70 and Xtra much more robust here).
While I think a 9"er is only 20-30% better, and wouldn't pay a lot to change with the digitals coming up so fast, I am under no illusions about the flaws in the XG. Most of the flaws can be worked around, but they are there.
So mods would help Mike 
And yes, I still want a 1209s.
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bbfarmht
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 1273
Location: Where the Mississippi runs east to west!!
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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I'm wondering how comparable a BG 808slc is to a xglc?
I just completed my conversion and started reading this thread!
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: |
Are you kidding me? The bandwidth on the XG (dual amp neckboards) sucks. |
The XG neck boards you sent me are top shelf for sure, and without a doubt, they are 1080P "CAPABLE" - they're not quite there, but wonders can be worked with that video chain....at least I think i can make some things happen.
| Quote: | | My Xtra had better bandwidth than the XG, or a least as good. |
I had an Xtra, and still have the neck boards. they're not as robust as the XG boards I have here.
| Quote: | | The XG is a better overall package - LC, focus and astig controls are better. But some things are worse. Bandwidth, tendency to streak, "reverse streaking", porch pickiness with tendency to get raster ringing (G70 and Xtra much more robust here). |
the bandwidth and streaking issues are usually the same. But in some cases they can be separate. Depending on the modifications performed, both can be improved. And based on the diagram that I have, that particular model can be improved.
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Mark_A_W wrote: |
Are you kidding me? The bandwidth on the XG (dual amp neckboards) sucks. |
The XG neck boards you sent me are top shelf for sure, and without a doubt, they are 1080P "CAPABLE" - they're not quite there, but wonders can be worked with that video chain....at least I think i can make some things happen.
| Quote: | | My Xtra had better bandwidth than the XG, or a least as good. |
I had an Xtra, and still have the neck boards. they're not as robust as the XG boards I have here.
| Quote: | | The XG is a better overall package - LC, focus and astig controls are better. But some things are worse. Bandwidth, tendency to streak, "reverse streaking", porch pickiness with tendency to get raster ringing (G70 and Xtra much more robust here). |
the bandwidth and streaking issues are usually the same. But in some cases they can be separate. Depending on the modifications performed, both can be improved. And based on the diagram that I have, that particular model can be improved. |
Are the neckboards typically the weak link in the chain Mike?
It might be something further up the chain.
I struggle to get my XG to reveal 1920 as well as the Xtra did. The push-pull XG neckboard should have near double the bandwidth of the single amp design, but the system certainly does not.
Sometimes I think simplicity may be better...
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:06 am Post subject: |
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When you want to sell that XG Mark, let me know, and ill probably come down and pay you cash. Further more, if you come across any good PGs (6s 9s, plus xtra plain, all of them) between me and a mate, we will consider taking them too.
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Mr. Green
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary
TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | When you want to sell that XG Mark, let me know, and ill probably come down and pay you cash. Further more, if you come across any good PGs (6s 9s, plus xtra plain, all of them) between me and a mate, we will consider taking them too. |
Find him a nice 1209s and he'll probably give you his XG... 
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Current Projector Marquee9501LC with PS3 (BLu-Ray) at 1080P LOVE IT! Screen is an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). (also own a NEC 9PG+)
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | | A fully tricked out 9500 might be better...notice I said might. I would see no need to upgrade your XGLC. |
I just don't know how to respond to this.  My ultra's are pretty much tricked out... MP Mikrons, moome cards modded by MP, HFQ900 lenses, LUGs, corrected c-elements, frankenyokes etc... awesomely sharp at 1080p72. I'd like to see an XGLC do what mine are doing.
might... 
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: |
Are the neckboards typically the weak link in the chain Mike?
It might be something further up the chain. |
Neck boards are the common source for streaking, but that's not always the case. Neck board streaking is easier to detect with the right patterns. When it's somewhere else in the chain, it's really hard to isolate. On the XG at this point I'm not sure, but the XG manual that i have shows a rather straight forward video chain. Which is the type that usually will never streak pre-neck boards.
| Quote: | I struggle to get my XG to reveal 1920 as well as the Xtra did. The push-pull XG neckboard should have near double the bandwidth of the single amp design, but the system certainly does not.
Sometimes I think simplicity may be better... |
Simplicity is the Marquees, which has the BEST neck board design of all the CRT projectors, and they are the HIGHEST bandwidth of them all.
And that's why I'm scratching my head over that list....if the XG has the problems (streaking/bandwidth) you mention, why is it listed as a "High Performance" CRT projector?
Streaking alone removes any projector from being High Performance. And bandwidth should be the first requirement for such qualifications.
A stock Marquee is the best out there when it comes to streaking and bandwidth, yet it's not recognized as such on the list...well, the 909 is up there with the marquees with streaking, but bandwidth is the issue.
I like the XG's video chain design, at least the one I have in the manual I got. I know they have so many variations of the XG and not all are equal, so I need to be clear that I'm referring to a particular one.
With todays modern video and image standards being HD (high definition), one would think the requirements would be a projector that best produce the truest elements of HD. If a projector lacks both bandwidth and the ability to properly display that bandwidth (not streaking), what catagory should it be placed in?. The requirement for HIGH performance should be the ability to fully resolve HD, and I'm not talking about 1080I or 720P. Those two rates can be easily done with a Dwin or any other low end CRT projector. And they can do it quite well and without streaking. High Performance should be another class all together
Got Marquee?
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Don't get me wrong Mike, streaking in the XG (at least my 1101LC) is minimal and you have to search with test patterns to find it, but it can happen.
In particular, the "ski jump" gamma curve that has become popular makes my XG streak like crazy. If I run a linear gamma curve (tweaked in Powerstrip) then it won't streak. But bump it in the near black, and it plays havoc with it.
By "reverse" streaking I mean a black shadow to the right of a white highlight - again, only on test patterns. I've never noticed this on video material.
And stop worrying about the stupid list! I'd swap my XG for a Ampro 4600 in a flash, don't care what the list says
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | Don't get me wrong Mike, streaking in the XG (at least my 1101LC) is minimal and you have to search with test patterns to find it, but it can happen.
In particular, the "ski jump" gamma curve that has become popular makes my XG streak like crazy. If I run a linear gamma curve (tweaked in Powerstrip) then it won't streak. But bump it in the near black, and it plays havoc with it.
By "reverse" streaking I mean a black shadow to the right of a white highlight - again, only on test patterns. I've never noticed this on video material. |
I understand that kind of streaking and where it comes from. And because of the XG design that I have, I'm sure I can do something about it. The best video chains are the shortest. When a video chain is too long, there's too much opportunity for flaws in the signal. A straightforward video chain is better because it's easier to control pedestals, clamping and linearity. A longer chain can have a more difficult time maintaining those signals. And that's why some streaking only shows up during certain scenes or images. A complicated video chain has a very difficult time maintain pedestal reference and linearity.
| Quote: | | And stop worrying about the stupid list! |
I'm not. I know its not going to change things. I justlike ribbing it..
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RVonse
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 3152
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | Streaking alone removes any projector from being High Performance. And bandwidth should be the first requirement for such qualifications.
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But bandwidth is only a component of brightness and sharpness. I hear what you are saying Mike about bandwidth being extremely important, but then again the G90 generally sells higher than a Marquee and I personally think it is because of overall brightness and sharpness.
Furthermore, a tech like youself can always improve bandwidth later. But you are pretty well stuck with brightness and sharpness with the brand of the projector and size of the tubes.
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RVonse
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 3152
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: |
And stop worrying about the stupid list! I'd swap my XG for a Ampro 4600 in a flash, don't care what the list says |
I think anybody and their dog who has experience in this hobby would swap an XG for an Ampro 4600 so fast it would make your head spin.
Which is why I think that list is being unfair to the newbies who might actually look at it.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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1031
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| RVonse wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | Streaking alone removes any projector from being High Performance. And bandwidth should be the first requirement for such qualifications.
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But bandwidth is only a component of brightness and sharpness. I hear what you are saying Mike about bandwidth being extremely important, but then again the G90 generally sells higher than a Marquee and I personally think it is because of overall brightness and sharpness.
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I Have seen only one 9" em-focus projector and it was G-90. Yes there is "sharpness" that is due great focusing (electrical&optical) but i noticed that my 8500 with hd-145 lenses (+little mods on video chain) has better bandwith, thats different kind sharpness what good BW can show. My 8500 cant produce that sharp/tight spotsize that G-90 can, but it can do sharper those small details from source material... No iīm not saying that my M8500 is better than G-90.. not near. But that is one part where Marquee shines.
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Mike P seems fixated on bandwidth...the Marquee's seem to excel in this regard, but they don't focus nearly as sharp as an XG. I'm not talking about a slight difference here either...if a Marquee can squeeze out some extra focusing ability, then it probably is a cadillac of crt projectors.
I do love the smooth picture of a Marquee (especially a color filtered one)...I'm one who can live with a little less sharpness, but it sounds like all of you want as much sharpness as you can get. Try a digital, you'll be thrilled!
To me color accuracy is huge...which means color filtering is a must! So I totally agree with Kal's rankings in most cases. I could care less if I had a high bandwidth neckboard and non filtered lenses or c-elements.
The other issue is...an XG vs a G70 vs a Cine8 Onyx...I've seen them all, and to think you'll see a difference in any of them...you're wrong! If they're all setup well, they will all looks the same. At least close enough that there is no reason to pick one over another. There are other reasons to not pick the NEC, such as white balance setup, pedestal settings etc...some NEC's are great, some are terrible in this regard.
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | | Mike P seems fixated on bandwidth...the Marquee's seem to excel in this regard, but they don't focus nearly as sharp as an XG. I'm not talking about a slight difference here either...if a Marquee can squeeze out some extra focusing ability, then it probably is a cadillac of crt projectors. |
Do what I did with mine, install some LUGs, Sony frankenyokes, HFQ900 lenses and 6-pole magnets and you'll get some great focus.
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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:03 am Post subject: |
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The problem is there are too many factors involved in making one "correct" list. Which is sharpest, which has the best color, etc. All relative to our own tastes. I've always looked at it as a general guide for newbies, or those who have been around long enough to read up and figure out what makes it where it is on the scale.
I upgraded from my 8500AC to an 8500LC, and it is MUCH better with blacks and newer VNB that were produced a noticeably sharper picture. My first impression was, "Holy sh!t this is sweet." My second one was that everything I read was right about how much better, but what I had before was just as sweet if I'd never seen it.
I'd bet it's sharper, and I'd bet nominally by the average viewer's standards. Will you think it's sharper and worth it is one thing; but based on my experience, ignorance is bliss.
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