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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: Sicko. (Documentary) |
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I saw the last hour or so of this film on Showtime last night..... I'm BLOWN AWAY! I'm buying the dvd tonight.
I knew how bad our system is, I didnt know how good others had it. 
I also have a new hero. Tony Benn former british MP. His explanation of socialized medicine was clear and correct.
It's worth the time 
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I also have a new hero. Tony Benn former british MP. His explanation of socialized medicine was clear and correct.
It's worth the time |
Yes great show.
When I watched it last year I was very impressed with how clear Tony Benn's explanations were on everything he spoke about, Very easy guy to listen to .
Bruce
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
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Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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I watched it on Showtime also, it was very good left or right I don't really know how anyone could dispute his findings. He does go over the top on the Cuba thing that will piss off some people.
Mike
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AnalogRocks
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent movie, I watched that with an American. There was some surprise there.
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | I watched it on Showtime also, it was very good left or right I don't really know how anyone could dispute his findings. He does go over the top on the Cuba thing that will piss of some people.
Mike |
The Cuba thing was silly.
But when you look at how healthcare is treated in this country.
How the dollar is the healthcare providers #1 concern. Even when you have "coverage" you are hounded by the hospital for more money. My sister had a baby this week. A month before she went in the hospital called her and informed her of the costs that her insurer would NOT pay and she had to make payments BEFORE she received service. She had to buy subscription cards to pay for TV and phone while in the hospital.
My mom had a knee replacement 6 months ago. While she was in the hospital, she call me in a panic. The accounting department had a rep visit her room and inform her that they wanted a check for 900.00. Why? Because her insurance didn't cover a portion of her surgery recovery. Now i found out they did and after a few faxes fixed the issue. But think about that, a woman who had just had surgery HOURS ago, is being hounded for money as she SUPPOSED to be recovering! And this is a woman with full Employee paid coverage!
Health insurance companies are bigger SCUMBAGS than bankers! We pay BILLIONS of dollars each year to insurers and medicare and receive HORRIBLE treatment in return. And all the while we worry what will we not be able to afford? What will our insurers not cover???
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Curt Palme
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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The only problem I had with it is the USers cheating the Canuck system, I don't think it's quite that easy. They also don't talk about the horrendous wait times for surgery in Canada.
In the US, you can't get surgery because people can't afford it.
In Canada, people can't get surgery and sometimes die due to the waiting periods.
But... I will say that from an outsider's point of view, having watched the movie and having talked to lots of USers, I'd prefer our system.
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| emdawgz1 wrote: | | MikeEby wrote: | I watched it on Showtime also, it was very good left or right I don't really know how anyone could dispute his findings. He does go over the top on the Cuba thing that will piss of some people.
Mike |
The Cuba thing was silly.
But when you look at how healthcare is treated in this country.
How the dollar is the healthcare providers #1 concern. Even when you have "coverage" you are hounded by the hospital for more money. My sister had a baby this week. A month before she went in the hospital called her and informed her of the costs that her insurer would NOT pay and she had to make payments BEFORE she received service. She had to buy subscription cards to pay for TV and phone while in the hospital.
My mom had a knee replacement 6 months ago. While she was in the hospital, she call me in a panic. The accounting department had a rep visit her room and inform her that they wanted a check for 900.00. Why? Because her insurance didn't cover a portion of her surgery recovery. Now i found out they did and after a few faxes fixed the issue. But think about that, a woman who had just had surgery HOURS ago, is being hounded for money as she SUPPOSED to be recovering! And this is a woman with full Employee paid coverage!
Health insurance companies are bigger SCUMBAGS than bankers! We pay BILLIONS of dollars each year to insurers and medicare and receive HORRIBLE treatment in return. And all the while we worry what will we not be able to afford? What will our insurers not cover??? |
If you look how the french cares for it's people in health care and with their other government services offered you soon realize why they want to stay home and not go to Iraq .
The interview with the US expatriates in france was entertaining.
The US has too large of a tax base and is supposedly a civilized wealthy nation to treat it's citizens that way period.
Our Health care has some problems as well, I think our direction towards a two tiered system should bring the best of both worlds together.
Bruce
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ecrabb
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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I DVR'd it because I want to see it. But, from what I've read, it's just like every other Moore "documentary": Chock full of half-truths and misrepresentations designed to fit his agenda. If you take away Moore's "propaganda lens", it isn't as bad here in US as he makes it look, and it isn't as good in the other countries as he makes it look. From what I've read, the Cuba segment of the film is especially laughable in its distortions of the truth.
The problem with watching a Moore film - any Moore film - is that you can't take any supposition in the film as truth. That's not to say there isn't any truth in the films, just that the truth is mixed in with so many half-truths, distortions, and obfuscations that don't have any way to know what's really true... You really need a computer and google handy to have some third-party analysis handy while you watch a Moore film. At least some counterpoint to to try get some sense of reality somewhere in between.
Moore is a talented individual - he's a propagandist unlike any other. That people even call him a documentarian boggles my mind.
As for the healthcare debate, I just don't understand the confusion. We all agree that the federal government figures out how to make everything it does horribly expensive and inefficient. I mean, we already have a 3+ trillion dollar federal budget that's grown over a trilllion dollars in the last 10 years. Now, the best idea so many have is to go ahead and have the federal government run the health care system, too? Yikes! That's just as scary to me as "scumbag" insurance guys running the system.
John, I've had two babies in the last 3 1/2 years, and I never once discussed a single dollar with anybody at the hospital. They simply sent bills in the mail after the birth for anything the insurance didn't cover. It was pretty inefficient - I think I got at least 5-6 separate bills over the 3-4 months following each of the births to the tune of $700-800 total. Anesthesiologist, neonatal clinic, ultrasound clinic... and a few more I can't remember. Why they can't run all that crap through an in-house clearing account and send one itemized bill is beyond me.
Still, I completely and utterly fail to understand how anybody thinks the government could in any way make healthcare friendlier, cheaper, or better. Take one look at the postal service or IRS to get my meaning. They can make it more accessible, but there's no way in hell the feds are going to make it cheaper or better. On the contrary, I think it will be inferior to what we have now in every way, save for the people who won't pay anything for it, anyway.
SC
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | The only problem I had with it is the USers cheating the Canuck system, I don't think it's quite that easy. They also don't talk about the horrendous wait times for surgery in Canada.
In the US, you can't get surgery because people can't afford it.
In Canada, people can't get surgery and sometimes die due to the waiting periods.
But... I will say that from an outsider's point of view, having watched the movie and having talked to lots of USers, I'd prefer our system. |
3 yrs ago i was in a HMO for dental and i called the office for an appointment. She said the first opening was in September, I said "are you serious???? It's MAY? you dont have an appointment for almost 4 months??? YES.
So i dumped the HMO and now i see a Dentist who doesnt take insurance. More expensive? YES. But the service i get is in a different universe from what i had thru insurers.
So waiting periods happen here too. Dont let the Capitalists fool ya!
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Still, I completely and utterly fail to understand how anybody thinks the government could in any way make healthcare friendlier, cheaper, or better. Take one look at the postal service or IRS to get my meaning. They can make it more accessible, but there's no way in hell the feds are going to make it cheaper or better. On the contrary, I think it will be inferior to what we have now in every way, save for the people who won't pay anything for it, anyway. |
End of discussion then I guess.
It is too bad you fail to comprehend though, or even entertain the idea that it could work. I guess as long as you can have a gun that is all that matters, f*ck people who might need it .
Bruce
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: |
As for the healthcare debate, I just don't understand the confusion. We all agree that the federal government figures out how to make everything it does horribly expensive and inefficient. I mean, we already have a 3+ trillion dollar federal budget that's grown over a trilllion dollars in the last 10 years. Now, the best idea so many have is to go ahead and have the federal government run the health care system, too? Yikes! That's just as scary to me as "scumbag" insurance guys running the system.
John, I've had two babies in the last 3 1/2 years, and I never once discussed a single dollar with anybody at the hospital. They simply sent bills in the mail after the birth for anything the insurance didn't cover. It was pretty inefficient - I think I got at least 5-6 separate bills over the 3-4 months following each of the births to the tune of $700-800 total. Anesthesiologist, neonatal clinic, ultrasound clinic... and a few more I can't remember. Why they can't run all that crap through an in-house clearing account and send one itemized bill is beyond me.
Still, I completely and utterly fail to understand how anybody thinks the government could in any way make healthcare friendlier, cheaper, or better. Take one look at the postal service or IRS to get my meaning. They can make it more accessible, but there's no way in hell the feds are going to make it cheaper or better. On the contrary, I think it will be inferior to what we have now in every way, save for the people who won't pay anything for it, anyway.
SC |
In my mind Michael Moore does films from his POV. I take nothing as gospel.
However, how anyone could defend the U.S. Healthcare system is beyond me. I work in the finance department of a hospital. My good buddy Chuck is the manager of the A/R dept. It is LUDICROUS the things insurers will do to avoid and delay payment for things that are ABSOLUTELY necessary!
Why we run healthcare and its administration as a for profit model is unfathomable.
It's because we (as a society) value money over people and quality of life.
That, imho is indefensible.
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ecrabb
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce 09 wrote: | End of discussion then I guess.
It is too bad you fail to comprehend though, or even entertain the idea that it could work. I guess as long as you can have a gun that is all that matters, f*ck people who might need it . |
Excellent use of demagoguery there, Bruce. Perhaps I should start referring to you personally in every one of my posts and pointing out your liberal left-wing populist points of view - even when they have nothing to do with the subject at hand. I don't expect you to understand my point of view anyway, Bruce. Hell, I'd be worried if you did. "f*ck people who need it." Yeah, that's what I'm saying.  Why do you have to come off as such an ******* in every thread where somebody takes a different point of view from your own? Notice how John and I can have differing points of view and intelligently discuss the topic and exchange ideas without attacking each other? You should try it sometime - you won't look like such a childish prick.
| emdawgz1 wrote: | Why we run healthcare and its administration as a for profit model is unfathomable.
It's because we (as a society) value money over people and quality of life. |
No, it's because many of us value the freedom to make our own choices (good or bad) and to keep the money we earn, rather than be forced to give it to others, regardless of who/how/where, etc. The system was set up as a for-profit system back when people had the right to keep their own money and only they themselves decided what they would spend it on and how... That was before the massive welfare state that is the US today. Now, after 60 years of an ever-expanding nanny state, nobody can remember how the system got to be as great as it is today - warts and all. Some of us value the ability to choose what companies, hospitals, doctors, etc. we support with our money - even if those choices are limited. What makes you think it will be so much better with socialized medicine? You think it's bad with an HMO now, wait until it's government-run.
You guys act like we don't ALREADY have a massive government-run medical program in the US! Have you ever heard of Medicare Part A? If you don't have health insurance and you get sick, it isn't like you're left to die in the street.
Look, I'm not saying our current system is without it's faults, or even that it doesn't need some major reform - hardly anybody would try to make that claim... Obviously the system needs reform. But, so do the others!!! Why do we have to toss out the entire model and go to a Canadian or European system, though? Why do we have to dump everything good about the current system to reform it?
Hell, our very own MulletMaster here was talking about her chronic and painful carpel tunnel in her wrist(s)... She's been waiting for YEARS to have surgery to correct the condition and can't get it. She's close to coming to the US to pay for it out of her own pocket to get it done. She was once bumped even when she was already in the waiting room to get the surgery, for Pete's sake!
SC
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: |
| emdawgz1 wrote: | Why we run healthcare and its administration as a for profit model is unfathomable.
It's because we (as a society) value money over people and quality of life. |
No, it's because many of us value the freedom to make our own choices (good or bad) and to keep the money we earn, rather than be forced to give it to others, regardless of who/how/where, etc. The system was set up as a for-profit system back when people had the right to keep their own money and only they themselves decided what they would spend it on and how... That was before the massive welfare state that is the US today. Now, after 60 years of an ever-expanding nanny state, nobody can remember how the system got to be as great as it is today - warts and all. Some of us value the ability to choose what companies, hospitals, doctors, etc. we support with our money - even if those choices are limited. What makes you think it will be so much better with socialized medicine? You think it's bad with an HMO now, wait until it's government-run.
SC |
I'm not talking about a nanny state. What i'm talking about is VALUES.
As my new "hero" Tony Benn said in the movie. 'Choice, only exists when you have the freedom to choose. If you cant afford care, you cant choose'
So that choice, is very limited for most of us.
But i'm still talking values. We have said, as a society. You can have all the healthcare you can afford. Now is healthcare a luxury or a basic? Clean water, air, police, fire. All of these things we take for granted, all brought to us by collective effort and payment. These are things we take as read.
Why not healthcare? Is it ok to put sick people in the street, because they cannot pay for care? Yes it is for us, because we do it.
What i'm questioning is values. How we deal with that question, defines our values.
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ecrabb
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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I completely understand John and on one hand, I agree - on the other, I don't. What about that other value? Ownership? Personal property? Liberty? Is it right to take - unwillingly - property (money) from one person and give it to another - even if for general welfare - healthcare. I don't think it is... Is it virtuous and altruistic for people with the means to take care of the less fortunate? Absolutely! Many do, through charity, philanthropic giving, donation of time and resources, and through their church, synagogue, or other organization. If you think about it, taxation to support welfare (of any kind) is a lot like eminent domain - it's the seizure of one person's property "for the good of the many".
I don't like either solution. I'd just like to hear some other alternatives to universal health care for all. There has to be some way to make it better than it is without turning over control to the government (and in large part, ruining it for everybody.)
SC
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: |
In the US, you can't get surgery because people can't afford it.
In Canada, people can't get surgery and sometimes die due to the waiting periods.
But... I will say that from an outsider's point of view, having watched the movie and having talked to lots of USers, I'd prefer our system. |
We have both systems in parallel.
It's not perfect, but it works. If you want to jump the public queue, you can pay for the private system (mostly via insurance, which is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to your employment).
Recently my wife got a really bad flu and we took her to emergency. Hooked her up to a drip for 6 hours and observed her. Total cost....$5 for parking.
But when she had babies we went private and paid for the "hotel suite" style maternity ward. Cost us $1k out of pocket I think.
Health care for all is a fundamental of a civilised society. That means a decent government based one - at the very least as a safety net.
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | I completely understand John and on one hand, I agree - on the other, I don't. What about that other value? Ownership? Personal property? Liberty? Is it right to take - unwillingly - property (money) from one person and give it to another - even if for general welfare - healthcare. I don't think it is... Is it virtuous and altruistic for people with the means to take care of the less fortunate? Absolutely! Many do, through charity, philanthropic giving, donation of time and resources, and through their church, synagogue, or other organization. If you think about it, taxation to support welfare (of any kind) is a lot like eminent domain - it's the seizure of one person's property "for the good of the many".
I don't like either solution. I'd just like to hear some other alternatives to universal health care for all. There has to be some way to make it better than it is without turning over control to the government (and in large part, ruining it for everybody.)
SC |
We do it all the time. there are many things that we all benefit from in the name of public good. I believe we should balance it. but i still believe that some things need to be in the public domain. Healthcare should be one.
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WTS
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry ecrabb, but how would any American know anything about the Cuban health system except what your gov cans up and gives you? It's not like you can go there and check it out for yourself.
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emdawgz1
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| WTS wrote: | | I'm sorry ecrabb, but how would any American know anything about the Cuban health system except what your gov cans up and gives you? It's not like you can go there and check it out for yourself. |
Actually you can. Cuba is growing as a tourist destination. I have a friend who went there 2 years ago and he RAVED about it. Unspoiled beaches, great food, super people....
I wouldnt mind myself... 
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ecrabb
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| emdawgz1 wrote: | | Unspoiled beaches, great food, super people.... |
...Of course the beaches are unspoiled - most of the residents can't afford recreation because they're all under the thumb of a communist dictator. I'm sure Cuba is great as a tourist destination though - I imagine food and lodging is probably stupid cheap.
| WTS wrote: | | I'm sorry ecrabb, but how would any American know anything about the Cuban health system except what your gov cans up and gives you? It's not like you can go there and check it out for yourself. |
Hey, Walter - Maybe you're not aware of this, but there is no national news outlet, here. We're free to broadcast and publish whatever we like, here. Really! Get this: People have actually traveled to Cuba, shot video, written stories, and published it. Pssssstt... Some of us have even seen those things. You might also be surprised to learn that our internet is connected to to the World Wide Web, and we can read stories from all over the globe.
As John already pointed out, while it is technically against the law for US citizens to travel to Cuba, people do it all the time. Writers, documentarians, surfers, leisure travelers, and others do it all the time.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't know a damn bit more about Cuba than I do either, Walter.
SC
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emdawgz1
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | emdawgz1 wrote: | | Unspoiled beaches, great food, super people.... |
...Of course the beaches are unspoiled - most of the residents can't afford recreation because they're all under the thumb of a communist dictator. I'm sure Cuba is great as a tourist destination though - I imagine food and lodging is probably stupid cheap.
| WTS wrote: | | I'm sorry ecrabb, but how would any American know anything about the Cuban health system except what your gov cans up and gives you? It's not like you can go there and check it out for yourself. |
Hey, Walter - Maybe you're not aware of this, but there is no national news outlet, here. We're free to broadcast and publish whatever we like, here. Really! Get this: People have actually traveled to Cuba, shot video, written stories, and published it. Pssssstt... Some of us have even seen those things. You might also be surprised to learn that our internet is connected to to the World Wide Web, and we can read stories from all over the globe.
As John already pointed out, while it is technically against the law for US citizens to travel to Cuba, people do it all the time. Writers, documentarians, surfers, leisure travelers, and others do it all the time.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't know a damn bit more about Cuba than I do either, Walter.
SC |
Well, SC. My friend went because he is considered a teacher in a religious organization. I could also get a license for similar reasons.
His impression of the folks in Cuba was different. They suffer because of the economic sanctions. Most of them are "poor", but they dont feel oppressed by Castro. Older folks remember how poor they were BEFORE castro. They also enjoy a fairly good lifestyle. Most folk are fairly happy. They would like more opportunity, but they are far from oppressed... in their mind.
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