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SYC
Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Gary, how do you do HD-SDI to BD50? I am an EE engineer, so it is easy for me to modify an player if I get more detailed information. I am so interested in this because my coming scaler is quipped with HD-SDI. I like to give it a try.
SYC
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Interesting. I've seen no ringing whatsoever on BD content played on the PS3 displayed pixel-mapped on a true 1080p display. Perhaps the display you were using was at fault. There may be other issues, but I'm not aware of any frequency-filtering at all on the PS3 - not at 1080p, anyway. You wouldn't be talking about a non-1080p display, would you? In that case, the display's scaler could be adding artifacts you can't remove with a simple "sharpness" control.
| Gary M. wrote: | | most blu-ray players out there today are adding processing to the image, this is a hidden dirty little secret of BD and goes especially the PS3, the PS3 is not a videophile playback device, it is a gaming machine |
Oh, here we go with the hyperbole, again. No objective testing, evidence or proof... Just notions about a device based on other functions it performs. I'd submit that there are no truly "videophile" Blu-ray players. I haven't seen ANY quantitative scientific testing that shows what, if any processing, any - let alone one or a few - of the BD players on the market add or do not add. Until we do, you guys are just making stuff up based on preconceived notions and no real evidence.
I'll cut you some slack Dave, in that you say you saw differences. That's fine, and I accept that. But, I'm amazed that no magazine or testing lab has compared these players like they used to do with DVD players. Until somebody does, I'm not going to write off one player or get excited about another based on whether it's "videophile" or "game machine"... Not without seeing some evidence of what, if any, differences do exist.
| Gary M. wrote: | just another reason for HD-SDI  |
Yeah, or HDMI inserted at a point in the video chain of the source device where it doesn't have whatever processing may exist later in the chain. Of course, if you're going to go to those lengths, you may as well re-engineer the entire output stage of the source device. If you do that, could you go ahead and just make mine HDMI, though? It'll look just the same on-screen and my prepro will still switch the signal.
SC |
sh*t...hell froze over again SC 
Oh, and I am an engineer - so you should all listen to me, and only me LOL
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: |
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I wouldn't put it beyond the industry to deliver muted video quality from the mega-potential that could be there, but I would imagine this would be easily made evident by comparing all standalone devices to something like a HTPC. Of course, the industry could impress itself upon the software companies as well.
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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This is just too funny.
Your turn Gary.
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Walter
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-Pjackso
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 791
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Seems to me, Gary could start with the simple facts...
| Quote: | by Gary M.
how do you know what equipment I have? what testing I have done? what design experience I have? me thinks you pulled this from your ass |
Gary - you brought up the questions:
What testing equipment do you have access to?
What testing experience do you have? (NOT the test results. The test results could be covered under an NDA, but the general experience/past background would not.)
What design experience do you have? (college projects, design projects from old jobs, number of design projects completed, etc. Again leave SPECIFIC NDA info omitted.)
None of the above would be covered under a NDA, as usually NDA limits your ability to disclose specific information or findings. Disclosing the above GENERAL information would be a good start to enforcing your side of the arguement.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Gary M. wrote: | | most blu-ray players out there today are adding processing to the image, this is a hidden dirty little secret of BD and goes especially the PS3, the PS3 is not a videophile playback device, it is a gaming machine |
What processing does the PS3 add to the image? I'm assuming for you (and others?) to say this, it must be documented somewhere?
I'm not picking a fight here. I'm just trying to learn.
Kal |
OK guys, lets be honest here for a second. NOBODY NOWHERE in the A/V industry does REAL testing. The "scientific method" seems completely unknown to people in this hobby/profession.
Basically, there are several things that should be done that are never done. The first step is objective measurements. These things are done and can measure some important things including:
- black level
- white level
- grayscale tracking
- color accuracy
These measurements only go so far, because they are not applied against the limits of human perception. For example, one display may track grayscale withing 40 degrees of D65 while another tracks it withing 70 degrees. So, objectively measured, the 40 degree one is better. However, the $60,000 question is "does it matter?" In other words, can a human tell the difference? What is the point at which a human can tell the difference?
We don't have great data on this and it is never really applied to the objective tests. So while those numbers are great, they don't tell the whole picture.
Secondly, the things they can't/don't measure are things like ringing, image noise, etc. The only way to objectively measure this is to grab a frame from the HDMI input to a computer and do a pixel by pixel comparison to a reference frame created from a reference decoder (MPEG2, MPEG4, VC-1, etc). This is NEVER done, but would be very telling.
Lastly, since we don't have good data with regard to human perception on these things, there is really only one good way to get it: double-blind tests. These can give us pretty good data on things is the difference in black level of .001 ftL and .0015 FtL visible to people? This is really the ONLY way to do a truly compare two displays or sources.
So, all the reviews and comparisons we read are really garbage and not worth much technically other than entertainment. The scientific community would NEVER accept what passes for "testing" in the A/V world.
That said then, what we do is to compare subjectively and post. We share our "tainted" opinions and see if others agree. In general, this works OK and some trends emerge and we believe these trends to be representative of reality.
My "problem" with Gary is that he does not seem to understand the above. He thinks his testing is rigid and has a high degree of veracity. This is of course tainted by his famous flights of fancy--as soon as he takes a "shine" to a product, it is the greatest product ever invented.
His opinions are too often colored by a couple common logical fallacies. The most often committed one is because something "seems" right to him (i.e. makes sense) it must be true. This is his HD SDI vs. HDMI position. I know that Jim Peterson and Lumagen did some extensive testing and concluded that HD SDI was unecessary. The tests showed them no real benefit. But HD SDI "seems" better--after all, we are grabbing the bits "closer" to decoding--so they "must" be better.
Anyway, back to the subject. All we have is some unscientific testing to go on. OK, so on this, we have seen a trend that several people that compare the PS3 to a variety of other decent stand alone players conclude two things:
1) Not all player output is identical, and
2) The PS3 does have the best output available
Now, are these facts--no. But they are trends. You can choose to "test" for yourself and accept or dismiss these trends. I tested and I judged (unscientifically) the output of the PS3 to be inferior to the LG BH100. The others present in my house came to the same conclusion. At least one other person here did this same test, and all at his house came to the same conclusion. Not scientific, but a trend.
OP didn't even compare and found the output of the PS3 to be under his expectations. Now, does that mean others are better? No, perhaps no player can meet his expectations, but his reaction falls in line with the trend.
If you like your PS3, then keep and be happy. You might love playing games on it, or using it as a media device, or prize fast loading over incremental improvements in image quality, or you may see no difference in image quality.
Gary takes his "evidence" a little too seriously and falls into too much conjecture to explain his "conclusions". But if we constrain ourselves to the question of "Does the PS3 have output that is equal or better to all other players?" His opinion in this case of "no" falls in line with the trend.
So, just take it FWIW.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | So, believe me when I say that Mike Parker saying something about a video circuit means a whole hell of a lot more to me than when you say it. That's credibility. Sorry, but that's just reality. |
Actually, you should question his non-scientific assertions also because he has a vested interest in the outcome.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
These measurements only go so far, because they are not applied against the limits of human perception. For example, one display may track grayscale withing 40 degrees of D65 while another tracks it withing 70 degrees. So, objectively measured, the 40 degree one is better. However, the $60,000 question is "does it matter?" In other words, can a human tell the difference? What is the point at which a human can tell the difference?
So, just take it FWIW. |
You know, I've been preaching this for the better part of a decade, and also included the audio aspect as well. Made little difference as cowsumers will still follow the cow in front of them to the slaughtering.  Wasn't there a game on this note (lemons?)
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Trust no one. Absolutely no one. Advice of the board.
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SYC
Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Dave, when you compared PS3 and BH100, did you adjust your scaler and display for them? Or it is very obvious without adjustment.
Can you give me a straight answer, which one you have seen without ring effect?
The main reason for me to start this topic is that I can not buy one, test one, and return the ones I don't like because I live in Taiwan and there is no rule to return bought products without any condition. I have to spend a lot of money to test (BD players here are twice more expensive than in US).
SYC
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: |
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I'd also like to know if these were tested with 1080i/p/60 or 1080p/24, which output was used and why.
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Walter
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SYC
Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:57 am Post subject: |
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After I borrowed the PS3 from my friend to connect with my own system: XG110+Moome's HDMI, I found I was fooled by Onkyo receiver or my friend's projector, AE2000. PS3 output a clean signal without extra sharpness added on either DVD or BD version of DVE.
SYC
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| SYC wrote: | Gary, how do you do HD-SDI to BD50? I am an EE engineer, so it is easy for me to modify an player if I get more detailed information. I am so interested in this because my coming scaler is quipped with HD-SDI. I like to give it a try.
SYC |
I would love to help out but I can't, I am under contract with my hardware providers, I can't divulge or provide the needed hardware or schematics or firmware etc.
again sorry about that
-Gary
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | So, believe me when I say that Mike Parker saying something about a video circuit means a whole hell of a lot more to me than when you say it. That's credibility. Sorry, but that's just reality. |
Actually, you should question his non-scientific assertions also because he has a vested interest in the outcome. |
give me a break Dave
why don't you go enjoy your digital, flip it on and with its blinding brightness enjoy your latest copy of Skeptic magazine
| Person99 wrote: |
His opinions are too often colored by a couple common logical fallacies. |
Dave, if you were a person that had any real knowledge of logical fallacies and how to properly implement them you would not go running around slamming people left and right for being illogical and reserve the usage for only the truest outright intolerable cases of fallacious arguments
a true student of logical implementation would know the principle of charity 
-Gary
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | kal wrote: | | I'm not picking a fight here. |
I am. 
No, seriously... He could tell you, Kal. But, then he'd have to kill you.
No, seriously... He could tell you, but he's under a NDA.
SC |
It's, like, a big, heavy NDA, too. He can barely reach the keyboard from under there.
At any rate, it seems bizarre that companies would spend time and money 'adding processing' when it's not necessary, and then keeping it secret. When TV makers add idiotic processing, they at least call it SUPER HYPER THREAD DRIVE ENHANCE-O-MATIC CONTRAST BOOST SUPREME, or something. Their spending money coding some kind of contrast booster or sharpener, and then not saying anything, seems highly unlikely. And their bothering to do it specifically for a 'gaming' device seems even more unlikely, assuming you subscribe to the notion that the video end of things is handled differently due to the device's primary purpose.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | kal wrote: | | I'm not picking a fight here. |
I am.
No, seriously... He could tell you, Kal. But, then he'd have to kill you.
No, seriously... He could tell you, but he's under a NDA.
SC |
It's, like, a big, heavy NDA, too. He can barely reach the keyboard from under there.
At any rate, it seems bizarre that companies would spend time and money 'adding processing' when it's not necessary, and then keeping it secret. When TV makers add idiotic processing, they at least call it SUPER HYPER THREAD DRIVE ENHANCE-O-MATIC CONTRAST BOOST SUPREME, or something. Their spending money coding some kind of contrast booster or sharpener, and then not saying anything, seems highly unlikely. And their bothering to do it specifically for a 'gaming' device seems even more unlikely, assuming you subscribe to the notion that the video end of things is handled differently due to the device's primary purpose. |
Ahhhh whada you know about a gamming devi...ooops nevermind
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CRT.
HD done right!
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | kal wrote: | | I'm not picking a fight here. |
I am.
No, seriously... He could tell you, Kal. But, then he'd have to kill you.
No, seriously... He could tell you, but he's under a NDA.
SC |
It's, like, a big, heavy NDA, too. He can barely reach the keyboard from under there.
At any rate, it seems bizarre that companies would spend time and money 'adding processing' when it's not necessary, and then keeping it secret. When TV makers add idiotic processing, they at least call it SUPER HYPER THREAD DRIVE ENHANCE-O-MATIC CONTRAST BOOST SUPREME, or something. Their spending money coding some kind of contrast booster or sharpener, and then not saying anything, seems highly unlikely. And their bothering to do it specifically for a 'gaming' device seems even more unlikely, assuming you subscribe to the notion that the video end of things is handled differently due to the device's primary purpose. |
I am just posting what I know and have seen, if you don't want to believe that then that is fine, it won't hurt my feelings
I am sorry that I cannot provide proof, believe what you want
-Gary
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jamsys
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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So what all of you mean is that no one makes makes a upconverting Laser Disc??? I took a dremel to my PS/3 for no reason hoping to widen the opening???
Just trying to lighten things up...
Scott
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: |
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too funny
-Gary
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:34 am Post subject: |
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FWIW I also had the PS3 in house with the BH100, and I like dave use a Lumagen scaler, i use a crt vs daves digital. it was easy to see the diffrence right away, but as it was stated above ,was the input calibrated to the new source? Not at first And i at first just copied that input on my lumagen from my BH100 for the PS3, after i turned it on to adjust for possible different timings I then calibrated it a little for gamma as I never calibrated my LG BH100 either, just the Marquee PJ. Even after boosting the gamma at the lowest IRE 10 and 20 the LG Bh100 with no gamma boost looked cleaner at low levels and had great colors. Also for some reason the LG seamed smother, less digital haze or what ever you want to call it. the PS3 looked good but not as good as the LG Bh100. now having said that I also have the BH200 and the Qdeo chips by marvel in this set look great. better image over all above the BH100. only thing i dont like about the BH200 is no analog audio  I love the sound of the BH100 analog outs.
Now going to the HD SDI argument, but i know a few people on this forum have HD SDI MadMRH being one and its on a blend and I think boilermaker. I respect both their opinions and they both agree HD SDI is better than HDMI for their own viewing opinions. So as its been said here take it for what its worth... some one else's Opinion.
Athanasios
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Mr. Green
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary
TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Ps3 rocks. The "only" downside is it's louder than the projector. 
Other than BD, IMO it's by far the best upconverting DVD player hands down. If you don't like my opinion I can fax you my cooking diploma. Sukkas!
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Current Projector Marquee9501LC with PS3 (BLu-Ray) at 1080P LOVE IT! Screen is an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). (also own a NEC 9PG+)
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