CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[Person99]

Don's point was that you need to do a full set up (or copy then tweak) for the 72 since it is a different memory block.

[wallace123456]

[Person99]

[dropzone7]

[wallace123456]

[Person99]

Either I'm not understanding what you guys are saying or you are not understanding what I'm saying.

This is what I think you guys are saying:
1) When you turn on the BD player it is sending 60 and the projector is "seeing" 60.
2) When the movie starts, the BD player is sending 24 and the projector is "seeing" 72.

Is this correct?

If so, then why? When you know you are going to watch a BD in 24, put the VP in the output config for 72. When the player sends 60 for the start up screen and menus and any of that, it WILL be jumpy because the VP can't frame lock--but your PJ will "see" 72. When the movie starts, the player outputs 24, now the VP can frame lock and starts putting out a smooth 72.

In my scenario (which is the way I do it), there are no re-syncs at the PJ. The downside is the memus and stuff might not be smooth--but who cares, the movie is and I have no re-syncs.

60 Hz content is a completely different story!!! I have a 60Hz output config for that stuff--lets just stay with turning on the BD player through BD movie playback--why do you send 60 to the PJ then have to have it resync to 72 when the movie starts?!?!?! This is what I'm confused about.

[wallace123456]

[Person99]

[dropzone7]

[wallace123456]

[Person99]

[wallace123456]

[dropzone7]

Great explanation Dave and I totally agree with what you are saying. I think the only problem now for me and maybe Don as well, is how we implement this in the VP50. I think I may have figured out half of this while messing with the menus in the VP50. As I had said earlier, I have two display profiles saved. Profile 1: 60hz. Profile 2:72hz. There is a setting under the display profile menu for "AUTO" which I had set previously. So, when "content" be it either #1, 2, or 3 as in your example starts up, the VP50 is automatically selecting one of my display profiles based on the frequency of the "content". Aside from a bit of horizontal shift adjustment, and the 60hz and 72hz frame rates, my two profiles are identical. So, I turned OFF the "AUTO" setting for display profiles and no more projector syncing clicks. I get a blue screen between "content" changes but no clicks or annoying noises. I think I also have improved the vertical banding problem I had. Not with what I just described but with some careful convergence and geometry adjustments. I pretty much started over last night running an external pattern (INHD crosshatch pattern for HD Cable) and (DVE Blu Ray crosshatch for the BD player). The issue is much improved not to mention my convergence and setup are much better. I can still see the vertical banding but it's back to the level it was always at which is to say, "very tolerable" and only slightly distracting in a scene with white backgrounds or lighter colors. I think I'm obsessing over it at this point and I doubt that anyone else that comes in my theater would notice. So, more progress made and the next step may be to build something into my remote which automatically selects the appropriate VP50 profile when I turn on a particular source. For example, I always want to use Profile #1 when I view an HD-DVD or HD Cable show and I always want to use Profile #2 when I watch a Blu Ray movie (yes Dave, all of the disc at 72hz, previews, warnings and all).

[VideoGrabber]

dropzone7,
> the next step may be to build something into my remote which automatically selects the appropriate VP50 profile when I turn on a particular source. For example, I always want to use Profile #1 when I view an HD-DVD or HD Cable show and I always want to use Profile #2 when I watch a Blu Ray movie <

I might not be understanding exactly what you're trying to achieve here, but the VP50 already provides for very flexible switching and parameter setting, and should be able to achieve that without external remote assist. The memory architecture is a bit complex (as it is on the Lumagens) and not completely clear from the documentation. It can do a lot, but can be a challenge to understand and utilize.

At the top-most level (and they don't start here... they describe it bottom-up), there is a bank of memory settings for each input, combined with every different source signal it can handle. These are Input Format Settings. E.g., a composite input would have only 2 banks (NTSC-60-480, and PAL-50-576), while HDMI has 10 banks (interlaced & progressive inputs, from 480 to 1080), component inputs have 6 banks, and RGB has 8 banks. These tend to be "invisible" in the sense that you can't select or alter them manually. They go online automatically based on the source selected and input signal seen. There are a total of 66 Input/Format memory banks, which you never actually "see".

Within each I/F bank, you have lots of settings, that are specific to only that bank (inp/fmt):
- Picture Controls - brightness, contrast, etc.
- Input Adjustments:
o audio source, lipsync delay, etc.
o deinterlacing, overscan, colorspace, etc.
- Active Input Preset (one of 4 system fixed, 10 memories, or User*)
- Active Display Profile (one of 10 memories, or User) - if AutoLinking is enabled (optional)

The 10 saveable Input Presets hold aspect ratio controls:
- frame AR and active input AR
- pan, zoom, borders

(*According to the manual, while there are 10 saveable memory slots for these, there are also 66 more memories = the User setting for each of the individual Input/Format combinations. If you change the User Preset settings for one input/videoFormat, then switch to another and select User, then modify that User setting, when you return to the first, it is preserved.)

The 10 saveable Display Profiles store output config info:
(these are only available if UserMode = Advanced)
- analog or digital output select
- format (base rez & timing info)
- output AR for Display and Screen, imageShift, underscan
- output level, syncType, colorSpace
- frameRate conversion
- gamma correction

Even if the Display Profile (output config) is auto-linked to the Input selection (optional), you can still select a different DisplayProfile afterwards, while on the same input.

~~

I'll have to admit that I'm not clear on why you're running everything into the Onkyo first, and then a single HDMI into the VP50. That minimizes your ability to utilize the VP50 to dynamically compensate on a per source basis. Essentially then, with everything merged into a single input, the only disciminator you have left is the video signal format. If two of those happen to be the same, the only way to adapt is to manually select a different DisplayProfile.

> So, when "content" be it either #1, 2, or 3 as in your example starts up, the VP50 is automatically selecting one of my display profiles based on the frequency of the "content". Aside from a bit of horizontal shift adjustment, and the 60hz and 72hz frame rates, my two profiles are identical. <

Yes, but one of the characteristics of each DisplayProfile is the framerate, and you could still have 2 different DPs with some adaptive settings, but the same framerate (72 Hz locked, here).

One of the nice things the Lumagens have that DVDO lacks, is a Copy operation. So (nearly) duplicate entries have to be set up by manually by hand, vs a quck clone. It's also not always obvious what configuration possibilities you have available. A trait the Lumagens share as well.

[VideoGrabber]

My comment:
> Yes, but one of the characteristics of each DisplayProfile is the framerate, and you could still have 2 different DPs with some adaptive settings, but the same framerate (72 Hz locked, here). <

could reflect one of the confusing aspects of the VP50. When your multi-source switches from 60 to 24 Hz, the I/F memory bank changes, but you don't see that directly. You could input a 60 Hz source, then select Profile N. Then input a 24 Hz source, and ALSO select Profile N. As mentioned above, each HDMI input has 10 completely independent memory banks (dependent on signal frequency, etc.) and you can assign whatever Profile you want to each of them. Or you could have 2 nearly identical Profiles, both at 72 Hz locked, differing only in the Shift setting. And assign the appropriate one to each.

If you assign a 60 Hz Profile to one and 72 locked to another, then the output will change dynamically as you change inputs (as you discovered). But you don't have to config it that way, and you can still retain some auto-adaptability.

If you have a (1) and (3) scenario, with 60 Hz signals coming from multiple (merged) sources going to the SAME input, and want to display them differently depending on content or context, you will have to switch Profiles manually, unless you bypass the Onkyo and go directly into the VP50. That's because you removed the only way the VP50 could have been able to tell the difference. So then it's your job.

[MikeEby]

[VideoGrabber]

That's a good point, Mike.

In one sense, as soon as you provide for extreme flexibility, the burden of controlling all that power becomes your responsibility. And that's going to be true on a PC or a standalone box.

But I think the biggest problem with the VP50 isn't intrinsic complexity, but rather documentation that makes more sense to the Implementers than to the Users. That's bound to confuse the crap out of people. If you describe all the low-level tech details (which they do), without providing a clear overview (which they don't), people are bound to get lost. Some pictures and diagrams of how the settings interrelate would be helpful as well.

Couple that with the fact that the UI on a standalone box (or OSD) can never hope to compete with what a PC (could) offer in the way of making things visually understandable (or adjustable, box remote limited basically to up/down/left/right), and the PC still holds some cards.

[Person99]

[wallace123456]

[dropzone7]