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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | Hm. Do they say what they used the scalers for? Color management? |
Yes, if my memory serves me correct I believe the RS1 had a problem with "neon like" green when used without color correction/management.
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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a Lumagen HDP that does all calibration stuff and can be gotten for 500$ on ebay
ruler flat greyscale, nearly perfect CMS, boosted gamma where-ever you want, perfect color decoding for each source, perfect blue and red y/c delays for each source, I could go on and on
all with no blue defocus and sper sharp image, worth every penny of that
-Gary
Last edited by Gary M. on Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Mostly color management
| Quote: | We just posted new software for the Lumagen HDP, ProHdp and HDQ that adds a CMS (Color Management System). This allows you to move the position of the primary colors. Some of the latest 1080p projectors such as the JVC RS2 have primary colors that are outside the color triangle. Calibrating the primary colors can give you a much better image. The new Lumagen Radiance also has a CMS system which works very well to calibrate the RS2.
Best regards,
Randy Freema |
| Quote: | | I have a RS1 and a VP50Pro. A VP gives you a lot of advantages beyond switching. The VP50Pro really allowed my to tweak the calibration of the RS1 (gamma, offset, gain, etc.) beyond what the RS1 would allow. However, I have to agree that a processor with a full CMS would be ideal. Example, the green primary is way out of range. If you could pull it in, the results would be much better. SJ |
| Quote: | in my case I am using the VP50 (not pro) with the panny 2000. I needed it primarily for the aspect ratios for CIH. The image quality with the VP is much better, and I know that it will serve me well on my future projectors.
when I feed it 1080p the scaler does nothing, which is exactly what I want. the deinterlacing on the VP50 is superb.
__________________
Itai |
| Quote: | Many RS1 owners (including myself) are looking to the soon to ship Lumagen Radiance. It seems to have a wider array of calibration options than some of the other offerings and Lumagen has said that they are actively working on a Color Management System that, if doable, should address the over-saturated colors that plague both the RS1 and RS2. It has dual HDMI outputs. Lumagen has dropped the analog outputs with this model - I don't know whether that will impact your CRT set-up. The Radiance is Gennum based.
There are other models with dual outputs (I know for example the Crystallio2 has dual HDMI outputs and analog) - other members with more experience will undoubtedly chime in with ideas.
__________________ |
this is just a few coments, there are many many more hidden in those threads in the VP section.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Gary M. wrote: | the trick to my much talked about sharp as a tack image is no blue defocus, if you go this route you will need to correct your greyscale problems a bit
I did this on a whim when setting up my 1352LC, I noticed that the blue tube in my unit was so sharp it was unreal and thought maybe I should try no blue defocus, did it and will never go back
the difference is easy to spot on movie credits
eat the blue bump and correct it with a scaler, it makes a totally difference image
my recently removed blue tube shows no extra wear at all from this, although I did use a 80" wide screen and ubber low contrast
-Gary |
How many foot lamberts are you getting out of your picture Gary?
Kal |
Kal to be honest I don't know and never will with the 1352 as it is gone, why I never took that reading with the HCFR/eye one LT is beyond me, is it even doable with enough certainty with that sensor?
-Gary
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Mostly color management
| Quote: | We just posted new software for the Lumagen HDP, ProHdp and HDQ that adds a CMS (Color Management System). This allows you to move the position of the primary colors. Some of the latest 1080p projectors such as the JVC RS2 have primary colors that are outside the color triangle. Calibrating the primary colors can give you a much better image. The new Lumagen Radiance also has a CMS system which works very well to calibrate the RS2.
Best regards,
Randy Freema |
| Quote: | | I have a RS1 and a VP50Pro. A VP gives you a lot of advantages beyond switching. The VP50Pro really allowed my to tweak the calibration of the RS1 (gamma, offset, gain, etc.) beyond what the RS1 would allow. However, I have to agree that a processor with a full CMS would be ideal. Example, the green primary is way out of range. If you could pull it in, the results would be much better. SJ |
| Quote: | in my case I am using the VP50 (not pro) with the panny 2000. I needed it primarily for the aspect ratios for CIH. The image quality with the VP is much better, and I know that it will serve me well on my future projectors.
when I feed it 1080p the scaler does nothing, which is exactly what I want. the deinterlacing on the VP50 is superb.
__________________
Itai |
| Quote: | Many RS1 owners (including myself) are looking to the soon to ship Lumagen Radiance. It seems to have a wider array of calibration options than some of the other offerings and Lumagen has said that they are actively working on a Color Management System that, if doable, should address the over-saturated colors that plague both the RS1 and RS2. It has dual HDMI outputs. Lumagen has dropped the analog outputs with this model - I don't know whether that will impact your CRT set-up. The Radiance is Gennum based.
There are other models with dual outputs (I know for example the Crystallio2 has dual HDMI outputs and analog) - other members with more experience will undoubtedly chime in with ideas.
__________________ |
this is just a few coments, there are many many more hidden in those threads in the VP section.
Athanasios |
trust me on this, Athan is right on the money, I have did a few digital reviews including the RS2, scalers are needed more for digital than CRT, so there are no excuses not to have one for CRT as you will need it down the road should you decide to go that way, plus what you get in image quality is priceless
-Gary
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hm. Cheapest HDP's I see on ebay are over $600, but that's better than $1000. And Lumagen says they've added a CMS.
You've got DVI inputs instead of HDMI -- is that a problem? And the output is DVI-D. They say you can use it with HDMI with a simple converter, but don't you lose all HDMI/HDCP handshaking? In other words it couldn't be used with any kind of compliant HDMI source?
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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If the Lumagen would correct gamma and allow for perfect primaries and secondaries...could be good. But, you would still need a dvi card in your projector....too much money for me.
Current sony projectors have a fully integrated cms...if we don't buy expensive projectors with improper colors or no cms...then they will have to integrate it into their projectors. No way would I spend 1k to get proper colors for a digital...no way!
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | Hm. Cheapest HDP's I see on ebay are over $600, but that's better than $1000. And Lumagen says they've added a CMS.
You've got DVI inputs instead of HDMI -- is that a problem? And the output is DVI-D. They say you can use it with HDMI with a simple converter, but don't you lose all HDMI/HDCP handshaking? In other words it couldn't be used with any kind of compliant HDMI source? |
The only thing you don't have with DVI is the audio. A simple HDMI splitter can handle that if you really need it.
I have no have shake issues at all, and that is another selling point for the Lumagens, you can have better control of edid turn it off, auto detect, Hotplug(always sending signal), I use the former for my LG BH100, for my sat i leave it to auto.
Athansios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | If the Lumagen would correct gamma and allow for perfect primaries and secondaries...could be good. But, you would still need a dvi card in your projector....too much money for me.
Current sony projectors have a fully integrated cms...if we don't buy expensive projectors with improper colors or no cms...then they will have to integrate it into their projectors. No way would I spend 1k to get proper colors for a digital...no way! |
you really don't need the DVI/HDMI card. the Lumagen does a great job deinterlacing 1080i signals , I had it this way before i got the Moome card, I had the player output 1080i and the lumie upscaled it to 1080p. Looked very good and hardly any different than my current moome, now I can not say how good the new card is.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: |
You've got DVI inputs instead of HDMI -- is that a problem? And the output is DVI-D. They say you can use it with HDMI with a simple converter, but don't you lose all HDMI/HDCP handshaking? In other words it couldn't be used with any kind of compliant HDMI source? |
nope, the Lumagen has s complete DVI input EDID setup suite that makes the gear connected think it is a HDMI input, you can force 4:2:2, 4:4:4, a certain resolution like 720p only, so the connected gear will do what it thinks it is connected to and what it needs
this is amazing to say the least, very nice
the Lumagen DVI output is limited to 8-bit RGB DVI though, internal and input is all 10-bit, Jim says they have the best dithering in the business though, can't comment on that though because I have never used one in my system, it lacks so many things that the DVDO VP50pro gives me
I have entertained using the Lumagen HDP on all sources on passthru and feeding it into a VP50pro, so I have all the calibration of the Lumagen and the features I need from DVDO
-Gary
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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I have entertained using the Lumagen HDP on all sources on passthru and feeding it into a VP50pro, so I have all the calibration of the Lumagen and the features I need from DVDO
Am I this out of touch...or is that bordering on ridiculous?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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The RGBHV does have a better bit rate I think. i have the Mux-HD and tried it before the lumie to strip HDCP and was able to feed the limie 1080p24 and then output 1080p48 via RGBHV and it looked very nice. I just didnt want to spend money on another cable as I already have a bunch of DVI to HDMI cables for the Blend.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: |
Am I this out of touch...or is that bordering on ridiculous? |
if you don't care about PQ it is ridiculous  
-Gary
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | I have entertained using the Lumagen HDP on all sources on passthru and feeding it into a VP50pro, so I have all the calibration of the Lumagen and the features I need from DVDO
Am I this out of touch...or is that bordering on ridiculous? |
GINO does this also for his blend, and I think he has two Lumagen Radiance's!! Not sure two though but I know for sure one.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | benareeno wrote: | I have entertained using the Lumagen HDP on all sources on passthru and feeding it into a VP50pro, so I have all the calibration of the Lumagen and the features I need from DVDO
Am I this out of touch...or is that bordering on ridiculous? |
GINO does this also for his blend, and I think he has two Lumagen Radiance's!! Not sure two though but I know for sure one.
Athanasios |
Athan, do you have any links or details on Gino talking about mixing the Lumagen and DVDO? would love to hear about it
thanks
-Gary
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Ohmess
Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Posts: 242
Location: Vienna, VA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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I have a question. I own a Lumagen HDP, and from what I am reading here only use a fraction of its capability. My projector is in pieces, but will be back together soon, with a bunch of mods, 9" tubes and new lenses.
Where is a good place to learn how to use my Lumagen better?
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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I'm all about pic quality, but I'm not all about throwing money out the window to grab that last 2%. $1000 to get a more accurate green primary?? Using a scaler to allow sharper blue focus so you don't see a bit of blue bleed on the credits when the movie is over....it's very amusing is all.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Ohmess wrote: | I have a question. I own a Lumagen HDP, and from what I am reading here only use a fraction of its capability. My projector is in pieces, but will be back together soon, with a bunch of mods, 9" tubes and new lenses.
Where is a good place to learn how to use my Lumagen better? |
Look at the manual first off, read it over and over till you grasp the terms.
then you will need to read over Kals Guide for Calibration. it gives a good starters idea about colors
and greyscale. The look over on AVS in the Display calibration forums, Tom Huffman has a nice pice on using CMS.
It gets very technical. Then Look at the VP forums on AVS also, lots of good info there. Then last just mess around with it,
that is how i learned most of it and most of all I do here in the CRT world and Life in General. read,research and then get your hands dirty is the best advice i can give.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: | | Mark_A_W wrote: | You can't compensate for true tube saturation by fiddling with the gamma curve.
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I don't understand?
you can correct the lack of blue at the high-end with a scaler and you can correct the middle blue hump with a scaler as well, all while having the sharpest blue with no defocusing, how do you mean you can't compensate?
this is hard on your blue tube yes, but it works just fine
here is the blue from my 1352 after 2.5 years, I used no blue defocus and boosted blue at the scaler end
-Gary |
You can only do so much Gary.
As Garyfritz said, once the blue hits the limit, it's difficult to eek much more out of it.
Fiddling with the gamma curve on a focused blue is really reducing the blue output in the middle, and then you are matching the red and blue to that. You are reducing your total output to match the limit set by the blue.
You can't push the high end of the blue higher, because it can't keep up - it's saturated.
If you defocus the blue, it will then keep up, and your output is then limited by the red and green, and is the max you can get from your projector.
It's all about personal choice - you chooses your compromises.
With a 9" Barco you will have plenty of light to sacrifice.
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