|
As this forum is rarely used anymore, we've locked it. Feel free to browse and read. Questions? Please reach out to us directly. Cheers! |
|
 |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I started reading that article and quit after about the second paragraph. I don't think he knows wtf he's talking about.
I can't imagine a watching a movie that was shot at 60Hz, wouldn't it look like video then? Yuck! Some of the 120Hz flat panels IMO look weird as hell to watch.
Mike
_________________
Doing HD since the last century!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MikeEby wrote: | I started reading that article and quit after about the second paragraph. I don't think he knows wtf he's talking about.
I can't imagine a watching a movie that was shot at 60Hz, wouldn't it look like video then? Yuck! Some of the 120Hz flat panels IMO look weird as hell to watch.
Mike |
I agree with you on this Mike, the 120Hz panels just don't look right. It's like the whole thing was shot with ENG Betacams when they are in that mode.
_________________
Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: The Big Judder Problem and the Overhyping of 24p |
|
|
| garyfritz wrote: |
I could almost believe that, if anybody would point to a reference that says it. |
Gary, why must we do all your googling for you (I even gave you the search phrase in an earlier post!)? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_of_vision
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ecrabb wrote: | To be honest, I don't think the author of that article has a really good handle on the subject.
First of all, recording something at 24hz and playing it back at 24hz does NOT result in judder. There is no such thing as "film judder". Everybody who calls it that, uses the term incorrectly. Judder is SPECIFICALLY the motion artifact that results from playing back content at a frame rate different from which it was recorded - i.e. playing back 24hz content at 30 or 60hz. Judder is the result of displaying a sequence of frames for different amounts of time - which doesn't happen in the theater, or anywhere else program material is displayed at its NATIVE refresh rate.
I suspect the author is using a low-end digital projector that accepts a 24p input, but is still displaying at 60hz (adding 3:2 pulldown), and therefore displays film-source material with judder regardless of how he has the source or projector set up. It probably looks the same or similar, but he thinks it's different when he switches his BD player to output 60hz. That, or the resulting picture really is subtly different depending on how the processor in the BD player vs. the projector adds frames (3:2 pulldown) to display 24p source material on the 60hz native display.
This paragraph is particularly telling:
| Quote: | | In 24p playback, this scene is a pure, unmitigated disaster. The people seated at the table come apart at the seams, the tuxes flash and strobe, the Casino Royale logo on the card table blinks like a neon sign. Once you've replayed this travesty a few times, switch your Blu-ray player to 60p output and run it again. Yes, it is still a mess. But look at it closely ... the juddering effect is actually reduced. That is because the 3:2 pulldown is blurring and masking some of the latent motion judder in the film. There is certainly a separate conversion judder that is added to the visual stew with 3:2 pulldown, but oddly enough it works in contravention of the latent 24p judder. The net effect is that the image is a bit blurred, and the overall judder is noticeably reduced. Scenes like this do not look great in 60p, but they look worse in 24p. After all the hype over 24p (the benefits of which we eagerly anticipated as much as anyone), it must be admitted that 60p playback can, in the final analysis, be less distracting for many people. |
I don't know what the F he's talking about, but there should be no BLURRING of any kind unless something's wrong or misconfigured in his setup. We're talking about temporal frame rate conversions. There should be nothing at all spacial going on unless we talk about different kinds of i-to-p interpolation. There should simply be no blurring of any kind if we're staying at 1080p, but just comparing 24p and 60p. That's why I think something is F'ed up in his system.
The judder effect is probably reduced when he switches from 24p to 60p output on the BD player, because the video processor in either his projector or the BD player sucks ass. Either the frame rate conversion is borked in the projector making it more "judder-y" than it should be, or the processor in the BD player is doing something wrong making it look blurry or smoother than it should.
SC |
BINGO. I don't know what projector he's using, but he just doesn't know WTF he's talking about. Needs to understand the terminology before he writes an entire article that highlights an entirely different problem set than the one he thinks he is seeing. I hate when junk like this gets into the ether because now for the next five years my customers will be asking me questions based on this misinformation.
Wonderful 
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MikeEby wrote: | Some of the 120Hz flat panels IMO look weird as hell to watch.
Mike |
Yep. What you need to look for in a 120Hz display is one that does "black frame insertion" NOT one that does "interpolation".
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
|
|
