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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: | I love the arrows. Classic!
Anyway, I've gotta go with "the placebo effect" for that one.
(Oh, and by the way - when you buy scammer sh*t like that Nordost cable, you're no better than the people giving their money to the penis pill spammers. You're rewarding fraud, taking business away from companies that work hard and are *honest*, and legitimizing a parasitic industry that almost certainly *does* bilk money out of people who really can't afford it. And that in itself should be enough reason not to do it.) |
spoken like someone who has never actually sat down and done A/B comparisons between cables. The Nordost sound a lot different, maybe it's not a sound everyone would like, but it's very different none the less.
Do yourself a favor and go use your ears before posting something like "it's the Placebo affect". BTW, the Nordost's in the pic retiail for around $200. a pair new and half that used and they're built in the USA.
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:47 am Post subject: |
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How can cables change the way an electron sounds ? 
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | perisoft wrote: | I love the arrows. Classic!
Anyway, I've gotta go with "the placebo effect" for that one.
(Oh, and by the way - when you buy scammer sh*t like that Nordost cable, you're no better than the people giving their money to the penis pill spammers. You're rewarding fraud, taking business away from companies that work hard and are *honest*, and legitimizing a parasitic industry that almost certainly *does* bilk money out of people who really can't afford it. And that in itself should be enough reason not to do it.) |
spoken like someone who has never actually sat down and done A/B comparisons between cables. The Nordost sound a lot different, maybe it's not a sound everyone would like, but it's very different none the less.
Do yourself a favor and go use your ears before posting something like "it's the Placebo affect". BTW, the Nordost's in the pic retiail for around $200. a pair new and half that used and they're built in the USA. |
Sometimes people hear different tones than others. I can hear very high freq and my wife can't. Go figure.
Some people like brussel sprouts; most don't. 
If I think a Toyota Tacoma pick-up truck is more comfortable than Corvette, so what.
BTW, I luv BBQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Some don't.
Also, I do like the softness and sometimes crackling sounds on vinyl.
Off to watch Iron Man. "I AM IRON MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
wallace
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StylinLP
Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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True so true. Na-sayers are like arm chair quarterbacks. Have alot of opinions for something they never experienced themselves.
Only dummy heads put on cables backwards! *grin*
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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom.W wrote: | | How can cables change the way an electron sounds ? |
This is what I really would like to know. I won't say the cable can't change the sound as I don't own or use any fancy cables, but I would like to know the science behind this.
Draganm-
Were the AB tests you did double-blind tests?
Erik
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | VideoGrabber wrote: | Zebu inquired:
> What makes the cable on the right sound better? <
perisoft beat me to it, but it's the arrows, of course. That way, the electrons don't get confused and go in the wrong direction. WARNING: You do have to be careful though, not to plug them in backwards. That would be devastating. The electrons probably wouldn't flow at all.
The other obvious reason is that they cost more, which always makes things sound better.
Besides, don't you value flat frequency response in your audio system? What better to deliver it than flat cables? Plus, there's plenty of air around those conductors... they don't have a nasty ground shield bottling them in. That contributes to greater "air" in their musical reproduction. Yeah, that's the ticket!
I rest my case.  |
I'll take them! BUT, only if they're made in West Korea. |
This just in!!!
Johnco of Wheering W.Korea, in association w/the esteemed Physicist Dr.E. Emmett Brown are pleased to announce....
Jordost Audio Cabling! 
The Flattest audio cable EVER!!! It also boasts I.E.T!!! Intelligent Electron Technology! No more searching for arrows to insure proper electron Flow!
Acclaimed artist and musician Gary Busey exclaimed, "Ive never seen flatter or straighter cables! The music just flowed right thru!!!"
Supplies Limited !! Order Yours Today!!!!
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom.W wrote: | | How can cables change the way an electron sounds ? |
I'm glad you asked! I.E.T. is the answer.
The jordost cables choose only the most intelligent electrons, these are then screened for flatness. Then they are sped thru w/ your music assuring the flattest and clearest sound possible!
Order your Today!
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom.W wrote: | | How can cables change the way an electron sounds ? |
I don't know, but I don't think we're listening to electron's, we're listening to the flow of electron's which make up an electronic signal that's generating and Electromagnetic field. how those electrons flow is affected by cableing. Put aside audio and lets look strictly at Co-ax. Co-ax can send a signal with no loss for something like 300 feet. Try and do this with normal cable and you will get only a fraction of that. Co-ax is a cable that was Engineered to create it's own elecromagnetic property's in order to proprogate a signal , fom Wiki
| Quote: | [edit] Signal propagation
Open wire transmission lines have the property that the electromagnetic wave propagating down the line extends into the space surrounding the parallel wires. These lines have low loss, but also have undesirable characteristics. They cannot be bent, twisted or otherwise shaped without changing their characteristic impedance. They also cannot be run along or attached to anything conductive, as the extended fields will induce currents in the nearby conductors causing unwanted radiation and detuning of the line. Coaxial lines solve this problem by confining the electromagnetic wave to the area inside the cable, between the center conductor and the shield. The transmission of energy in the line occurs totally through the dielectric inside the cable between the conductors. Coaxial lines can therefore be bent and moderately twisted without negative effects, and they can be strapped to conductive supports without inducing unwanted currents in them. In radio-frequency applications up to a few gigahertz, the wave propagates only in the transverse electric magnetic (TEM) mode, which means that the electric and magnetic fields are both perpendicular to the direction of propagation. However, above a certain cutoff frequency, transverse electric (TE) and/or transverse magnetic (TM) modes can also propagate, as they do in a waveguide. It is usually undesirable to transmit signals above the cutoff frequency, since it may cause multiple modes with different phase velocities to propagate, interfering with each other. The outer diameter is roughly inversely proportional to the cutoff frequency.
The outer conductor can also be made of (in order of decreasing leakage and in this case degree of balance): double shield, wound foil, woven tape, braid. The ohmic losses in the conductor increase in this order: Ideal conductor (no loss), superconductor, silver, copper. It is further increased by rough surface (in the order of the skin depth, lateral: current hot spots, longitudinal: long current path) for example due to woven braid, multistranded conductors or a corrugated tube as a conductor) and impurities especially oxygen in the metal (due to a lack of a protective coating). Litz wire is used between 1 kHz and 1 MHz to reduce ohmic losses. Coaxial cables require an internal structure of an insulating (dielectric) material to maintain the spacing between the center conductor and shield. The dielectric losses increase in this order: Ideal dielectric (no loss), vacuum, air, Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE), polyethylene foam, and solid polyethylene. It is further increased by impurities like water. In typical applications the loss in polyethylene is comparable to the ohmic loss at 1 GHz and the loss in PTFE is comparable to ohmic losses at 10 GHz. A low dielectric constant allows for a greater center conductor: less ohmic losses. An inhomogeneous dielectric needs to be compensated by a noncircular conductor to avoid current hot-spots. |
So, if we accpet the theory of ca-axial cable as an established Electrical Engineering principal why is it so hard to accept that a speaker cable of special design can change the sound of a speaker?
BTW, the nordost in the picture earlier were not speaker cables, they are interconnects which are traditionaly co-axial. The Nordost interconnects are co-linear, so it's a totally different cable. i did not couble blind the Nordost blue heaven, but we compared them to some mid level Kimber's. the salesman who was selling the Kinmber's in the shop was pretty astonished to hear the Nordost's we broguht with us easilly outperform the Kimber's he was selling. It wasn't something requiring imagination, the difference was huge. Of course we were listening to a $5K 2-channel system. I'm sure with a lesser setup the difference might be less or not at all?
Now we were listening to /swapping out, $200. interconnects. What i you stepped up to $2K interconnects? I really don't know to be honest. Maybe at some point you really d odtart paying for magic smoke and mirrors? To be honest I try not to listen to systems I will never be able to afford so I don't lose sleep over very expensive cables
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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I like Arnolds take on expensive cables...
| achase wrote: | | Tom.W wrote: | | Welcome to the forum Arnold ! Can you give a little more information on the audio system and cables ? |
Back in 1969, I had a part-time business selling stereo equipment (Sansui, AR, Kenwood, etc.) at a college in the Boston area. I had built what I thought was a really good stereo system until the day I walked into a McIntosh / Klipsch dealer ( The Music Box) in Wellesley, MA. They had a A/B speaker switching system, and started out playing the AR3a’s that I was using at the time, fed by McIntosh amps. They then switched to a pair of Klipschorns. My jaw dropped as I heard a sound unlike anything I had ever experienced before. It was one of those ‘life changing’ moments as I realized that everything I thought I knew about audio before then went out the window. (Of course, my next thought was, “How in the world can I ever afford to buy a system like this??? Years of further stereo sales and a wholesale connection to sell the Klipsch commercial line to bars and hotels solved that problem)
Fast forward about 13 years, and I’m in the broadcasting business enjoying success and a new house with a “state of the art” E.S.P. industrial CRT video projector. I had assembled a ‘Surround Sound’ audio system using Klipschorns for the main Speakers driven by MC-2300 amps, and McIntosh speakers and amps for the other channels. I can’t remember what the ‘state-of-the-art” surround sound processor was, but I do recall the ‘matrix logic’ sounding very impressive for the time, especially if fed from the Laserdisc’s ‘digital’ output! All in all, the system sounded better than anything I had ever heard in the theaters, and I was quite happy with it.
Then…..I go out to Hollywood to a TV programming convention and stay at the Century City complex. Across the way was one of the movie theater chains “flagship' theaters showing “Ghandi in 70mm six-channel magnetic stereo. I decide to see the film, and as I am walking into this HUGE theater (the giant old fashioned type before “twinning”, with hundreds of seats, multiple balconies, etc) I see an easel at the doorway touting the fact that “This theater is equipped with a HPS-4000 Sound System”. I had never heard of “HPS-4000”, and THX was considered THE ultimate thing a theater could equip itself with. As I’m waiting for the movie to begin, I remember thinking smugly to myself how no theater ever came close to duplicating my “Klipschorn/McIntosh" experience.
The movie begins, and within minutes I am experiencing the same kind of audio 'revelation’ I had back at The Music Box years before. The bass, the dialog clarity, and the overall sound experience put my home system to absolute shame. And to do this in such a massive theater was a mind-blowing feat to me. I never forgot that day, and about 10 years ago when I was adding on to my present home, I contacted John Allen, the owner of the company to see if he would build a small version for my (then) new home theater. He agreed to do so, and for the last ten years I’ve been able to experience a bit of what I heard in ’82. My ultimate goal, however, was to recreate the ‘Ghandi’ sound on a larger scale, which brings us to the present question. The speaker cabling used in ALL of the HPS-4000 installations is ordinary non-metallic jacketed 10 gauge, 4 conductor electrical cable, with the wires ‘doubled’ to create one massive ‘pair’. I know at this point many of you are rolling your eyes, but let me share with you another story:
In the early 1970’s, I was friends with the owner of The Stereo Shop in Hartford, CT. Being the science nerd that I am, I questioned the real need for the super-expensive turntable cables that supposedly ‘changed the sound of your records’, or the silver-plated speaker cables. It was the latter that I took the most exception with. I just could not see the benefit of spending the $20 or so a foot for the fancy cable when logic told me conductor size was more important than having a hundred small silver-plated conductors. Every time I visited the Stereo Shop the arguments grew more intense. Finally, the owner agreed to bring to my house a pair of the largest McIntosh speakers made, as well as a MC-2300 amplifier to drive them. An A/B speaker switch was provided, and he hooked up his silver cables to one side, and I hooked up ORDINARY 12 GAUGE SOLID CONDUCTOR ARMOR JACKETED (“BX”) ELECTRICAL CABLE that I had left over after an electrical installation to the other side.
Hours later, after listening to all sorts of source material from the intimately familiar to the Lincoln Mayora ‘Direct to Disk’ series, I could detect ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between the two, and frankly neither could he. Thus with this background, I found complete comfort years later with John Allen’s approach: let the end result do the talking.
John uses custom designed BGW amplifiers for all channels.
http://www.hps4000.com/pages/Project440.html
Sorry for such a long winded answer to your question –
Arnold |
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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When I did a cable audition here about 10 years ago I had $60 Tributaries, $200 XLO's, $40 Monster, the $0 elcheapo ones that you get with stereo equipment and some stupid expensive cables whos name I can't remember they were around $1200 a pair for the RCA interconnects. I was looking for a set of Cables for my Pioneer CLD-D704 LD player. I tried each one after the other, fully expecting the $1200 cables to blow everything away.
I got a shock. The $1200 cables didn't sound any better than the monster cables at $40, which sounded 'ok' but left the centre channel voice 'muddy' and not too clear. The best sounding for voice turned out to be the Tributaries followed a close second by the free cables. The XLO's were bass heavy, hid the mid range voices and just generally sounded like they would be happier on a sub woofer.
I bought the Tributaries. They expanded the sound stage a little bit with music as compared to the freebies. So price isn't everything.
At the store we tried the $1200 vs the $60 Tributaries and the salesmen were quite shocked. lol
There was a customer that said he couldn't hear a difference between them. Then I tried the free cables vs the $1200 ones, the muddled mid range went away but there wasn't as much base with the freebies.
We were testing with a Marantz CD player with BurrBrown D/A converts directly out to a Carver 120watt p/ch amp at the store.
EDIT spelling as usual
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Last edited by AnalogRocks on Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | So, if we accpet the theory of ca-axial cable as an established Electrical Engineering principal why is it so hard to accept that a speaker cable of special design can change the sound of a speaker? |
Everything in a signal chain affects the sound coming out of the speaker. At issue here though, is whether you can actually HEAR what, if any change two different speaker cables make. Can you actually detect and discern the tiny changes that one speaker wire imparts on the audible sound compared with another? I'd submit that the answer is "no" - and the proof is out there. In double-blind listening tests, the claims just don't hold up.
It's interesting to me how striking the similarity is between rabid audiophiles and religious zealots. They're just certain it's better - they'll bet thousands of their hard-earned cash on it. They can't tell you why it's better, they just know it is.
I always imagine the conversation something like this:
| audiophile/skeptic conversation wrote: | Audiophile: Come on, you can't tell it's better? You can't hear how superior this sounds to that? If you can't hear it, then you're just a naysayer. There's something wrong with your ears.
Skeptic: But, believer... We did a scientifically sound test... A double-blind test, in fact. The test group couldn't identify this $2000 speaker wire as statistically any better than then the $20 control sample.
Audiophile: I don't care what your test says, you non-believing ignorant nay-sayer. If you'd just put the science down for a minute and come really listen to this, you'd understand. |
| draganm wrote: | | i did not couble blind the Nordost blue heaven, but we compared them to some mid level Kimber's. the salesman who was selling the Kinmber's in the shop was pretty astonished to hear the Nordost's we broguht with us easilly outperform the Kimber's he was selling. It wasn't something requiring imagination, the difference was huge. Of course we were listening to a $5K 2-channel system. I'm sure with a lesser setup the difference might be less or not at all? |
Exactly. You didn't double blind, yet you're convinced the sound was different. not even just different, but much better. "Huge," in fact. So, were conditions controlled? Results documented? Background sound consistent? Identical source material segments, auditioned for equal amounts of time at controlled volume, and in precisely the same seating listening locations with absolutely no change in position of anything? How about a control group?Was there even an A-B switch for instantaneous switching?
Sorry - I really don't mean to pick on you, Dragan.
This is the thing I think is the funniest thing about the whole thing, though... Think about the recording and mixing studios and stages where the recordings themselves are all made. Hundreds of feet of balanced interconnects between the mics, instruments, mixing boards, effects boxes, etc... It's all all standard off-the-shelf commercial-grade product easily available from any commercial pro sound supplier. Think Belden, Canare, Mogami, etc. It's all very good, very high quality stuff, but positively commercial and pedestrian by comparison to any "boutique" cable, right? So, the signal where it's getting recorded to the master - a tiny signal (relatively speaking) - it all goes through hundreds of feet of "pedestrian" cable but, you're going to make the sound MUCH better by using 30 feet of some $2000 cable between your amp and speakers.
Mmm hmm.
SC
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | i did not couble blind the Nordost blue heaven, but we compared them to some mid level Kimber's. the salesman who was selling the Kinmber's in the shop was pretty astonished to hear the Nordost's we broguht with us easilly outperform the Kimber's he was selling. It wasn't something requiring imagination, the difference was huge. Of course we were listening to a $5K 2-channel system. I'm sure with a lesser setup the difference might be less or not at all? |
Exactly. You didn't double blind, yet you're convinced the sound was different. not even just different, but much better. "Huge," in fact. So, were conditions controlled? Results documented? Background sound consistent? Identical source material segments, auditioned for equal amounts of time at controlled volume, and in precisely the same seating listening locations with absolutely no change in position of anything? How about a control group?Was there even an A-B switch for instantaneous switching?SC |
First off we didn't compare speaker cables, we compared interconnects between the Phono pre amp and apmplifier. in other words it was a cable handling a very delicate signal, as in 5 millivolts. The conditions, music, seating postition, etc. was the same for both cables. We did an A-B-A and there was a huge difference where I did NOT expect to hear one. I was very surprised the Nordost had a much wider and deeper sounstage with greater extension and seperation to all the instruments.
You guys sure do change your arguments. first it's "all cables are the same" and now it's "well yeah they can be different but it can't be possibly be something anyone could hear" LOL. it doesn't really matter to me, I have very inexpensive cables in my system bcause it's not a true 2-channel system in a room optimized for that kind of listening. My 2-channel is part of my HT and therfore I am more like you tin-eared doubting thomases on this forum than a true audiophile.
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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Since we've move off-topic regarding RTR, I am still pissed about this deal:
( original thread: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=105766&highlight=#105766 )
[quote="wallace123456"] | AnalogRocks wrote: | | oliverg wrote: | You are in luck! We have, in our West Korean manufacturing facility, started to produce unidirectional coat hangers! We have four types as the rotation of the earth is reveres in the southern hemisphere and some people are left handed.
These high quality coat hangers are made of the finest pot metals recycling can buy! Infused with heavy metals recovered from waste water run on from our recycling factory in Taiwan, this provides the hangars with a two fold increase in strength and value. Heavy metals are paramount to producing quality sound with reduced harmonic shift.
Some companies use expensive gold and silver in their manufacturing. Not us. We prefer the lower cost alternative and with out secret process we infuse these coat hangers for the best sound quality possible at a very reasonable price.
Please note, when using hangars with coat's they may only go into the closet one way. If you are left handed please state when ordering you would like the left handed version.
~Analog Rocks Magazine[/i][/size] |
ALERT!!!! This guy is a RIP-OFF!!!!! The speaker wires pictures below are what I received for the price listed per pic. They sound like POOP!!!!!!!!!!
Don't be fooled by his "high quality hangers" claim; it just aint so!!!
wallace |
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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no no my friend. The first hangar pictured is a suplimental. It is to for be used with the speaker to insulate from the floor, the cross harmnic distortion insulating. You see?
The second hangar is correct, but first you must buy a pliers from our special tools catalog, please tell us left or right handed when ordering. Left hand pliers will work on right hand coat hangers but electrons will bend oposite way and speakers will be reverse phase.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: |
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it's too bad everyone is scattered across the country. the easiest way to settle this is to have a shoot-out at my house with my modest (but fairly nice) system. I would even cook up some food and be serving up generous portions of Crow.
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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | it's too bad everyone is scattered across the country. the easiest way to settle this is to have a shoot-out at my house with my modest (but fairly nice) system. I would even cook up some food and be serving up generous portions of Crow. |
Better Yet,
Come to US why don't you do a nationwide tour, your cable, our systems, would it make a difference on MY modest/cheap system, I doubt it. But ymmv
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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 646
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: |
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Just hury up and decide. I need to close in my walls and ceilings and I can't until I find the best speaker wire.
Jeeze.
I'm thinking of running romex.
Peace,
Joel
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Joel- get one that meets the building code! Lots of the esoteric cables don't.
16 gauge for the main speakers and surrounds, 14 gauge for the subs. PVC jacketed. That's it.
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| tri_joel wrote: | Just hury up and decide. I need to close in my walls and ceilings and I can't until I find the best speaker wire.
Jeeze.
I'm thinking of running romex.
Peace,
Joel |
I wired my room with this: Monster Cable THX 14 Gauge In Wall Speaker Wire 500' Spool. I got it from ebay, the seller has a site: http://www.darvex.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=D&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=MONS142RCL500
But, I only paid $161.79 shipped. Seems to be good cable and very easy to work with.
wallace
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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| tri_joel wrote: | Just hury up and decide. I need to close in my walls and ceilings and I can't until I find the best speaker wire.
Jeeze.
I'm thinking of running romex.
Peace,
Joel |
I use romex for my main speakers (front LR) becuase it has a good solid sound, possibly due to the solid copper conductors. I run a 12 gauge monster cable for my center (no good reason) and I use extension cords for my surrounds as they are furthest from the amp and I wanted a cable that was meant to go the distance.
Peace,
Erik
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