CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[Axatax]

The term "scaler" is a relic, as the modern VP does so much more. Jim Peterson did an interview with WSR a few years back on this issue. He used the term "interpolator", which I feel is an appropriate label.

IF I were starting over today (no investment in 15 years of media and equipment), I would be in an ideal situation as most modern source devices can do I/P and scale to common HD resolutions. With something like a digital panel display that can perform framerate conversion of 24p, I would NOT opt for a VP.

Most CRT PJs need to have the processing handled elsewhere. Most of this is moving into source devices, displays, and (to some degree), AVRs. A VP ceratinly isn't NECESSARY, but is almost always beneficial. My sources include SD DVD via SDI, LaserDisc, D-VHS, HD cable, and BluRay. Each of these source devices uses different connection types and output various timings and colorspaces. Besides offering excellent I/P and framefrate conversion and scaling, the VP transcodes, applies Gamma, and acts as a central hub for all this equipment. I also have John's input card for my G70, which is NOT mutually exclusive with a VP.

Not knowing everyone's equipment usage (and knowing the nature of this forum), I would be willing to bet that most folks here have equipment lists that are more similar to mine than different. I cannot see how a scaler would NOT be beneficial, esp. with a CRT PJ. I could string together a whole bunch of "black boxes", switches, and transcoders, and STILL NOT have the flexibility or capabilities of the scaler (a one-stop soltuion).

CRT & VP = PB & J.

[papalek]

I am sorry Gary but Chip is right. Cost plays a huge factor for purchases to some people. Gino has no problem with spending $8,000 on scalers. He makes good money and buys what he wants. But for me that is 3 months worth of my gross paychecks. I would have to take out a loan to buy one. To me the gains are NOT worth it. Allot of the CRT crowd are people that are either tight with their money or people that do not have very much money. Most of the noobs coming into CRTs are doing it because they can have a BIG screen much cheaper than with the digitals at the big box stores.

[Nashou66]

I agree cost is high for new units but, and a big BUT, I think if I was starting out into home theater I would budget in a VP from the get go no matter if I was going CRT or Digital, at least for a used one. When I got my Lumagen for my Marquee i had an old Sony VPLW400Q. For fun i hooked up the Lummie and out put the displays native 1025x1920 progresivly and I could see right away an improvement, meesed around more with the color controls and gamma and could easily see i was going to love this VP. I was a new HDQ i got in a deal with buying my marquee so I only paid 1200 for it more than the PJ cost. But to me it is the Brains of the PJ.

Athanasios

[Spanky Ham]

[Nashou66]

[Phil Smith]

[Axatax]

[Angus_rg]

[CRT_Ben]

[Phil Smith]

[r.bauer]

[stefuel]

[Nashou66]

[Gary M.]

still no answer to my y/c delay query, anyone who dismisses this as trivial or obsessing don't know much about PQ IMHO


when someone tells me that costs relates to the validity of a scaler (or any other item) when applied to a CRT projection system and we can't discuss the validity of a scaler without bringing up my f*cking life story and how I choose to live with my folks, then it's time for me to walk, simple as that, and I wonder why I steered clear of CRT based forums for 6 months

this thread is stupid and sucks

-Gary

[VideoGrabber]

r.bauer, thanks for the followup comments.

> I was talking about all good 8" EM CRT's, such as the G70 or the BG808s. On those projectors you are not running into bandwidth problems or losing horizontal resolution. <

I think there are some owners of those PJs that would disagree with that. E.g., Person99's Cine8 Onyx clone was at least as good as the 808s, and he saw noticable loss of h-rez when trying to do 1080p, especially at 72 Hz. Enough so that he had chosen to do interlaced, to maximize image detail. Many others have stayed with interlaced for the same reason, in spite of the recent trend to push 1080p (which "must" be better), regardless of the negatives.

> ...the de-interlaced picture still looks better, and a 72hz film image still looks better. <

This is clearly your opinion (which you usually are good about stipulating), which is fine. I enjoy hearing all points of view, especially when folks can back them up. But it's one that many would not share. It's not like those running 1080i on 8" EM PJs have never bothered to try 1080p. They have, and went back to 1080i in spite of the occasional visibility of interlacing artifacts, because the picture got visibly softer, and with degraded image contrast.

> Maybe you were referring to 8" ES entry models, such as the Sony 1251 of the BD800? <

No, I think we'd all agree quickly that those can't handle 1080p. I was referring to 8" EM PJs in the BG808-class (non-s), with <100MHz BW (75 MHz, in that case). Not "good" PJs, apparently, by your yardstick.

Take someone like Gary.M, for example, who's got a really excellent setup, taking maximum advantage of his "scaler". He's running progressive and 72 Hz, BUT he's doing it on a CIH screen, with 800p scan lines. Ask him if 1080p/72Hz looked as good. Ask him if he was running a full 1080 lines at 72 Hz if he'd still be running progressive or go interlaced. Especially since his (and most other) VidProcs won't handle 1080p at 72Hz.

[Nashou66]

I agree the parent comment could have been stated different ,like, he pays no rent so he can spend his money on HT stuff. Maybe he has to take care of them, like he says its not our business unless he makes it our business.


Athanasios

[MikeEby]

[VideoGrabber]

Gary,

it wasn't the OP who brought up the question of costing (bang for the buck). Though that's ONE legitimate factor to give some consideration to, after having evaluated their capabilities. I'd agree that starting with "they cost too much and therefore can't be justified no matter how much they may improve the viewing experience", is contrary to the spirit of the forum.

As for the Y/C delay issue, it's a serious one if you've got it, and nearly impossible to correct without a good vid-proc, if it varies for different sources. Luckily, not everyone experiences that problem, and if it's constant, you can correct for it during convergence, if you're fortunate enough to have a CRT PJ.

I've had 3 or 4 "scalers" over the years (still have my Lumagen for SD upconverts), but what bothers me about the current crop is what they can't do... in spite of their cost. E.g., 1920x1080p @72 Hz. Or for those wanting to do AAS to maximize PQ, they can't output interlaced at anything other than 1080 lines. And so forth. An HTPC solution has none of those limitations (but obviously, some of it's own).

[MikeEby]

[Phil Smith]