CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[stefuel]

OK, lets for a minute say I'm going to "buy" into this arguement. The current mentality around here is if you don't have the best then you got $hit so I'll have to drop almost 5K for a VPS3800 to hang with the "big dogs". Now lets put a real world figure on the percentage of increase of image quality I should expect from that coin drop. You'll hear all kinds of descriptions like "night and day", "100% better" even wild $hit like "1,000%" better, when in reality we've only achieved a mid single numbers increase. That's a lot of coin to drop for such a small gain.

But hey, if you've got deep pockets and it's worth it to you then go for it. It's good for someones economy
I'll be back. I have to go and raise my speaker wires another 5/8ths off the floor.

[perisoft]

How can *anything* help with primaries on either a digital or CRT? You can't make pure red any more accurate on either; what comes out of the tube or through the filter is what it is. You can't adjust it. What gives?

[r.bauer]

Check out the VP50pro, you can get refurbs for something like $960. Perhaps that puts it in a different perspective.

But let me try to give a score to the advantages of a modern scaler on a 1 to 10 scale on a 9"CRT,where 10 is the best and a 5,5 or higher is sufficient:
- Display film based material at 48 or 72hz; Score: 7,5
Eliminating Judder is most visible during pans or other camera movement. Some movements turn out so much more smooth than others. The result differs with the amount of speed of the original movement. At some speeds the improvement is huge, at other speeds the improvement can be close to none.
- De-interlace set-top box. Score: 8
The improvements are different for 50hz native viewers (EU) and 60hz native viewers (US). First 50hz viewers. Although 1080i@50hz can be done, an interlaced signal at this low refresh-rate has a lot of flicker in it. The 'writing speed' of the electron-beam is simply to low to excite the phosphor enough across the entire surface. It is simply to low for the type of phosphor used in CRT-projectors. Also on very sharp projectors the scanlines can become very annoying. Especially with vertical camera movements close to a certain speed the scanlines cannot be missed and the resolution of the perceived image drops.
For 60hz viewers the flicker is not so apparent, as the refresh-rate is a little above the lowest acceptable refresh-rate for CRT-projectors (using interlaced signals). The visibility of scanlines is of the same significance as with 50hz viewers.
For both the EU and US viewers the increase in lightoutput is apparent when comparing an interlaced and a progressive signal on a CRT.
- Analog input de-interlacing and scaling SD-material to 2* native resolution: 10
But when looking at SD-TV or DVD, or even LaserDisc, fed native from a player, this is something that cannot be compared to anything else. Forget D-scaler with a video-input-card or a HOLO-I or HOLO-II. The noise floor on analog inputs of a modern scaler is so low, it is insane. Especially in this respect there is no real comparison possible. The list of options and features on the Crystalio-II to process this signal are almost a page long. And the result is nothing short of stunning.
- Digital input de-interlacing and scaling SD-material to 2* native resolution: 7
(Compared to a Toshiba HD-DVD or PS3)
You gain the option of scaling to a twice the native resolution (optimum spatial scaling) and gain the option to display film-based material at 48 or 72hz.
When viewing TV-based material, you get the the best possible motion-adaptive deinterlacing possible. It clearly outperforms an HTPC in this respect. Scalers are built with one purpose, and that is to handle video material, and pc's are not.
Tweak-ability. Score: 10.
A scaler allows you to make adjustments to each source individually. From basic adjustments such as Contrast and Brightness, to grayscale or gamma corrections for each individual color. This ease of use can not be achieved with external basic-gamma control boxes.
First you calibrate from the scaler, and then each source as required.

The strong point of a CRT-projector is, that even with less than perfect sources, it still looks tunning. The image produced by any CRT projector automatically looks natural to the eye. Nothing will ever change that. But beyond this, there is still room for improvement, but at a cost, and that is where it becomes personal.

[r.bauer]

[stefuel]

Your 1-10 scale still has not put a final figure on how much better the end result is
I'm not buying into it. We're still just keeping up with the Jonses. If we just look at the two aformentioned scalers (Crystalio II and VP series scalers) look at how many revisions they have come out with in just the past couple of years. Every time someone in their R&D dept farts we have to cough up another couple of G's to stay on top of things. If you've bought into DVDO's or Crystalio's progression from the start, how much will you have spent to drag out that last couple of percent increase in image quality.

Food for thought. The average person on this forum enjoys a image that's better than 98% of the people you will ever meet on the street in you life. Why are we not satisfied with that. Because it's time to keep up with the Art's

[AFryia]

[Phil Smith]

[GEBrown]

[stefuel]

"but Person99 (Dave) would know for sure. "
Of course he would.

[r.bauer]

[Gary M.]

I don't understand how a scaler or demanding the utmost videophile performance is keeping up with the Jones family? I don't give a f*ck about what Mr. Jones does next door, I want my setup to be the best possible and I don't mean adding G90's to replace my NEC 1352LC

the simple fact is that without a scaler one is sacrificing the delivery of as close to perfect possible calibrated image in their HT, I didn't get into this or have a passion for videophile to impress people or have a image look better than 98% of normal TV viewing

there are so many things that a scaler does for ones image, bringing the discussion of cost into it is pointless, they are simply priceless,

to say they are sales gimmicks or are keeping up with the Jones products is foolish, by that measure having a CRT projector and not 50" LCD is trying to out due the Jones'

-Gary

[stefuel]

OK so native may not have been the best choice of words but I think you know what I was getting at. I can tell you that I could visit a dozen Crystalio/DVDO VP 50 equiped theaters and I still won't buy one. I just don't see tha 3-4K in value over what I already have. I haven't checked it for a while but I can tell you that I can get a almost perfect grayscale on the 4600HD (way better than the eyes ability to detect it) so that leaves the less than perfect pans from 60Hz that I have to really look for to see. 3-4K to resolve that doesn't sound like a cost effective expense

PS Have I pissed enough people off today? Happy Fathers Day

[Gary M.]

and yes Lumagen added primary calibration to the pre-radiance HDP and HDQ units

and yes they will correct pretty much any primary problems you have

-Gary

[Phil Smith]

Luckily I own a G70. Primaries are almost spot on, so no adjustment needed. I guess it's different for XGs. Not that a scaler can help that much anyway:

[stefuel]

[Gary M.]

[nomadII]

Actually the revolution in affordable video processing is why this forum exist & why we all own this "dinosaur" CRT technology.

I used to crave a Faroudja 5000 or a Teranex as the zenith of video performance. However I made no advancement towards ownership until utilization of a CRT was much more affordable.

Ofcourse it is no longer a necessity, but once you have spent "x" amount of dollars it is silly not to get the best performance out of whichever display you own.

"X" is a very different figure for each person at this forum.
I am always reminded of the HD source revoulution a few years back when people so happy with their current CRT setups opined that an HD source could not possibly make any improvement from the excellent performance they already had. Do not hear much from that crowd any more.

[AnalogRocks]

[AnalogRocks]

[Axatax]

[MikeEby]