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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Axatax wrote: | The software players also can't touch the decoding and deinterlacing performance of dedicated hardware, as Secrets has proven time and again in their testing.
The VPxx and Lumagens (and most other modern outboard processors) consistently ace the entire testing battery (100 point scale), while the software players hover in the 20-60 point ranges. FFDshow won't help you here.
You get what you pay for. |
Axatax,
What do you use? I'm curious how much of a difference there is between a HTPC and a dedicated scaler setup. Hopefully someone here has used or uses both and can post their experience.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Axatax wrote: | | Quote: | | I'd love to see some actual frame-on-frame, uncompressed screenshots. None ever seem to be forthcoming. |
By your tone, I gather you disagree. Secrets has an open testing methodology which can be repeated by anyone who is willing to understand and digest the process.
How do you propose comparing static screenshots of deinterlacing performance (which is tied to motion)? |
Despite my skepticism I'm actually serious.
Since deinterlacers work over very short timespans, differences would be visible in a small frame sequence. And it's fairly easy to spot issues with motion blurring, artifacting, etc, even with one shot.
And for scaling, obviously static shots are fine. The only advantages I can see that dedicated hardware would have would be the use of DSPs for additional processing grunt (mitigated by the ludicrous raw power in quad core CPUs now) and the dedicated R&D time potential of the people working on the stuff, as opposed to the open source derivation of ffdshow etc.
That said, those things can be negatives, too. There have been many times when kids in their basements have bested researchers and buildings full of professionals, so I'm not willing to hand the prize to the dedicated scalers based on 'they're professionals' alone. And my experience with ffdshow and avisynth's scaling / processing quality is pretty positive to say the least. Particularly with standard def content, there's only so silky you can make that sow's ear, and I can't imagine that black-box scalers can best a cheap HTPC by much visually.
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Axatax
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 403
TV/Projector: Sony VPH-G70Q (aka Barco Cine8 Onyx)
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That said, those things can be negatives, too. There have been many times when kids in their basements have bested researchers and buildings full of professionals, so I'm not willing to hand the prize to the dedicated scalers based on 'they're professionals' alone. |
Indeed, but as you indicate, there has been little (if any) effort to evaluate both approaches head to head. So far, Secrets has been the only group to apply an objective and consistent testing standard across the board.
One must ask in light of their results then, why the hardware devices consistently come out on top?
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Well, like I said, if they've got shots I'd like to see them. I'd like to know what the differences *are*. And as far as HD content goes, given that CRT PJs can display pretty much anything in its native format, deinterlacing shouldn't be that much of an issue. The only place I'd see post processing being used for the moment is for gamma / other color issues, and crazy stuff like I do (tube wear and hotspot knockout via inverse luma mapping).
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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BTW...how did this thread get this far off topic? 
Mike
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Doing HD since the last century!
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | BTW...how did this thread get this far off topic?
Mike |
Welcome to the curtpalme.com forums! 
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:09 am Post subject: |
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What's funny is the OP hasn't even been back!!! He probably came back, took one look at what the thread became, and thought "never mind".
SC
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Yes, and he did a great job formatting his original post.
I think Barco Cine 8 shot he posted is probably one of the most attractive looking CRTs ever made. Some of the rebadged Marquee were very nice looking units too, but that one just looks sweet.
Mike
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:38 am Post subject: |
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I agree. I've always really liked the 808/909 form factor. That and the G70/G90 are my favorites, with XG's close behind. I really like the long/sleek design of the 808/909 over the fat/boxy designs. You can tell somebody at Barco knew they'd have to have something decent to play in the home market. Anybody know whether the purple is painted or whether that's anodized aluminum?
SC
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: |
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I'm pretty happy I ended up with the 808 as far as looks go too. It just looks like a CRT projector OUGHT to look. The marquees may have good performance, but I can't imagine hanging one of those monstrosities in my HT without a hushbox!
The G70 and G90 are pretty good, too. But for some reason I really have a soft spot for the D50... if I was going to pick a little (heh) projector for my office, that'd be it.
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | jask wrote: |
These both have a place in home theater but the motiavated HTPC user has a LOT of options. want to upgrade your player to HD? BR? install better Audio? play back PAL material? digital and/or analog path? make dynamic room audio adjustments etc etc |
How do you deinterlace and frame rate convert the 5C protected 1080i content from StarzHD with your HTPC?
A Lumagen for <$1000 will do this pretty much flawlessly. As soon as the HTPC does this as well and as cheap and as stable, it might have a place in a theater. Until then, it is just a toy for hobbyists that prefer headaches over watching movies.
Basically, from all the pros and cons and everything else I've read and played around myself only leads me to one conclusions: An HTPC is really only a thieves tool. The only real reason to have one is to steal. If you're not stealing they are less functional, more problematic, and more expensive than other options. |
If I wasn't circumventing copy protection with a D-VHS unit I might try DTCPDECRYPTER.EXE, I myself have never used or needed it- but this guy thinks it is pretty cool...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzQ0AL5Bkxc
I think that a few of the FTA HD boxes will allow you to decrypt pretty well any signal you can pull down and then output it to a harddrive, again- not my thing,when I make copies they are legal fair use copies. I also think the industry has subverted the legal system with the DMCA and I look forward to every form of decryption that comes out. To allow consumers the right to legally copy media they own,and then make it illegal to produce or distribute the ability to do that is hypocritical.
I assume you are just ignoring the other positive attributes of the HTPC because the scaler may at least do this one thing better than a HTPC.Face it if you have already spent the money you are invested in the technology (limited as it is) but to ignore the many other uses and benefits of a HTPC and dismiss it as a "thiefs tool" sure sounds like a cop out.
Calling all HTPC owners thieves?  ...."there you go again..."
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| jask wrote: |
If I wasn't circumventing copy protection with a D-VHS unit |
What you talking about Willis? A D-VHS machine by definition falls under fair use (it is exactly what is protected by the famous betamax case) and does not in any way violate the DMCA. I'm not sure you understand the facts.
| jask wrote: | | I also think the industry has subverted the legal system with the DMCA and I look forward to every form of decryption that comes out. |
I think the DMCA has questionable aspects and worry about its legal impact, but it is a big stretch to say that a bad law legitimizes stealing. Stealing is a moral issue.
| jask wrote: | | To allow consumers the right to legally copy media they own,and then make it illegal to produce or distribute the ability to do that is hypocritical. |
Actually, the DMCA makes it illegal to copy media you already own if the act of copying requires you to circumvent copy protection schemes.
| jask wrote: | | I assume you are just ignoring the other positive attributes of the HTPC because the scaler may at least do this one thing better than a HTPC.Face it if you have already spent the money you are invested in the technology (limited as it is) but to ignore the many other uses and benefits of a HTPC and dismiss it as a "thiefs tool" sure sounds like a cop out. |
I'm not ignoring them, I'm just saying they are a net loss, not a net gain. The only reason I pipe up is because many of the HTPC zealots take every oportunity to tell people, "get an HTPC and use it--they are great!!!!". The fact is, they are not that great for A LOT of people. I've seen many try to use them only to regret it later so one should understand what they are getting into and why.
| jask wrote: | | Calling all HTPC owners thieves? ...."there you go again..." |
It is a bit of hyperbole, but I think it is quite accurate (methinks thou doesn't protest too much). Anecdotally, I literally know over 20 HTPC users well enough to know their habits (not take just their word for something on a forum), and not one of them has failed to use their HTPC for illegal activities. I allow for the case that there may be an HTPC in use somewhere that is not used for stealing, but you are being disingenuous if you don't at least acknowledge this is a small minority of HTPC users.
Hell, look at your post, you basically told people how to steal and essentially bragged "hey I'm stealing, but I'm not going to say I am so that I don't get it legal trouble when the RIAA asks for my IP". At least have the balls to man up and admit to your theft or stop doing it.
With regard to HTPC theft, it generally comes in a mild or an egregious form. The mild form is ripping DVDs that they have rented from NetFlix or BB. I call this the mild form because logically I can see no moral difference between ripping the 5" disc you rented vs. recording the movie from the broadcast service you rented. However, in the eyes of the law, the former is illegal but the later is legal. The more egregious form is downright theft. This is downloading movies and songs from the internet. In my anecdotal experience, well over 50% of HTPC user engage in this form of stealing.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: |
Oh, and if timeshifting rented movies makes me a thief, then consider me guilty. |
Yes, this is an illegal activity.
| perisoft wrote: | | If storing the media I already own on a PC so I can access it without swapping disks around makes me a thief, then consider me guilty. |
If you circumvented copy protection to do this, then it is illegal to do.
| perisoft wrote: | | If having the ability to game, play demos and other real time content, and control lighting and audio automatically makes me a thief, then consider me guilty. |
I don't follow this point at all because it makes no logical sense. Are you saying that you steal the games or home automation software and that is why? I fail to see why anyone would think using legal aquired home automation software on legally acquired hardware is stealing. What am I missing?
| perisoft wrote: | | Otherwise, consider the maxim: Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. |
Wise words that you would do well to live by judging by your posts.
So, my only question to you: are you going to man up and admit to downloading copyrighted audio and/or video content from the internet or are you going to lie and say that you've never done it? I find it so sad that you guys know this is wrong but have no problem doing it.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | perisoft wrote: |
Oh, and if timeshifting rented movies makes me a thief, then consider me guilty. |
Yes, this is an illegal activity. |
And it makes me a thief? There's a difference, you know. Timeshifting is (a) fair use and (b) deprives nobody of income.
| Quote: |
| perisoft wrote: | | If storing the media I already own on a PC so I can access it without swapping disks around makes me a thief, then consider me guilty. |
If you circumvented copy protection to do this, then it is illegal to do.
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Again - this makes me a thief how? Are you even reading what you're writing, or is your blind self-righteousness on automatic?
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| perisoft wrote: | | If having the ability to game, play demos and other real time content, and control lighting and audio automatically makes me a thief, then consider me guilty. |
I don't follow this point at all because it makes no logical sense. Are you saying that you steal the games or home automation software and that is why? I fail to see why anyone would think using legal aquired home automation software on legally acquired hardware is stealing. What am I missing?
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So I point out an absolutely legal use of HTPCs, to counter your argument that they can only be used for theft, and you immediately assume that I'm stealing! Wow!
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| perisoft wrote: | | Otherwise, consider the maxim: Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. |
Wise words that you would do well to live by judging by your posts.
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All right, then, let's ask the crowd - hands in the air everyone who thinks that putting your own DVDs on a computer is stealing! Anyone? Come on, let's see it!
| Quote: |
So, my only question to you: are you going to man up and admit to downloading copyrighted audio and/or video content from the internet or are you going to lie and say that you've never done it? I find it so sad that you guys know this is wrong but have no problem doing it. |
Oh, so no matter what I say, you get to puff yourself up and ride away a pompous jackass. Well played.
Regardless, I'll take the bait: No, I do not download copyrighted audio or video. I listen to internet radio (Of course, you probably think that's stealing, too), generally listen to 'freeware' music anyway, and have no particular interest in building a massive collection of Limp Bizkit albums, difficult as that may be for you to believe.
And as far as video goes, I don't get HBO, Starz, or any other movie channels - I haven't got the cash - so I couldn't record them even if I wanted to. And I don't particularly care to watch movies more than once, except under special circumstances, where (GASP) I buy them! Otherwise, I rent them - even if it wasn't too much of a pain in the ass to download them, I have a 15gb/month bandwidth cap, which would make piracy a pretty dumb proposition financially.
If I rent a movie and can't watch it because I get sick or my wife goes out of town, or whatever, I'll rip it and watch it when I can. This may be technically illegal (really even this is open to debate given that fair use is well established and protects timeshifting, which probably trumps the anti-circumvention rules if you get down to brass tacks), but if you think that this is morally stealing (You seem to alternate between citing law and morals depending on when it suits your argument) I look forward to your reasoned response.
You really are a piece of work - your logic basically consists of the following:
a) Assume that all HTPCs are for piracy, and be outraged
b) When pushed, admit that (a) is hyperbole but immediately follow up with a stronger version
c) Accuse that the above responder in (b) must be a thief because said responder is insulted at being called a thief
d) When informed of instances in which HTPCs are used for non-illegal purposes, respond by either accusing the responder of MORE theft, or pretend the response makes no sense because it conflicts with (a), which was the whole point to begin with
e) Create a false alternative in which the responder is either a thief or a liar, and walk away confident you've proven your point
Your arguments are a true epic in the annals of debate. If only Plato were here.
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jkruger
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 2435
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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I think we need to start another crt website and call it "Dave's Not Here" I'm sure it would be a big hit.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by macgyver655 on Fri May 30, 2008 3:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Macgyver, I don't, but I've paid fairly extensive attention to trade press coverage (not CNN or USA Today) and I think mostly Person99 is technically correct. The DMCA does, indeed, outlaw circumvention of copy protection. I don't believe there's an exception for personal use. However, the Sony case offers a pretty strong precedent for fair use, and morally it's unambiguous - to claim that it's immoral to rip my own DVD to my own hard drive is utterly preposterous.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: | | The DMCA does, indeed, outlaw circumvention of copy protection. |
The interesting an unprecedented aspect of it though is how far it goes. It does not just make the use of it illegal, but it (to quote the wikipedia entry), "criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services that are used to circumvent measures that control access to copyrighted works"
That is a pretty significant legal shift.
| perisoft wrote: | | I don't believe there's an exception for personal use. |
You are correct and that is one reason so many people are up in arms about it.
| perisoft wrote: | | However, the Sony case offers a pretty strong precedent for fair use |
Yes, which is why the the first serious legal challenge on this front will be interesting.
| perisoft wrote: | | and morally it's unambiguous - to claim that it's immoral to rip my own DVD to my own hard drive is utterly preposterous. |
I hope this was not a reference to my position because I agree with you and indicated that indirectly. I did also state it was illegal which is a factual statement that contained no opinion in it.
But, back to OP: sorry I commented on the HTPC recommendation that took this so far off track. Kal, should you feel it better to delete all the off topic stuff, have at it. I'll post no more in this thread.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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