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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:42 am Post subject: My Plasma TV Buying Experience |
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I recently sold my house and all my HT gear gear along with it. I'm moving this Thursday so I needed to get a TV for my apartment. The last 3 days I've tried to learn a little about flat panel TVs, as I know nothing. After researching on the internet for a couple of days, I had decided on a 65" plasma. I could get a fairly decent Panasonic for $5K shipped.
I decided I should go check some of the TVs out at Best Buy and Circuit City before pulling the trigger, so I spent 3 or so hours today doing just that. On fairly static images that were of good video quality, most of them looked pretty good. But once a scene with fairly fast motion was displayed, things quickly went to sh*t! There was motion blur and sort of a sparky, pixally effect. I have no idea what this is called or what causes it, but I don't really need to. I know all I need to know - they ALL looked like sh*t!
Maybe the demo loops weren't the best, and certainly the TVs could be calibrated better, but all I could go by is what I saw, and it made me completely change my game plan. I decided that anything bigger than a 50" was too big, because at the seating distance I'm going to be at, the picture flaws mentioned would be unbearable. I also decided that I didn't like ANY of them, so I opted for the cheapest 1080i 50" I could find, which was a Hitachi plasma for $1,250. I decided I would hold off something bigger until something came out that I liked, and use the Hitachi in the mean time. So I didn't want to spend anymore than necessary on a "just to get by" TV.
I don't know about the new digital PJs, but if what I saw today was an accurate indication, flat panel TVs are NO threat to the CRT crown.
I miss my G70 already! 
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:54 am Post subject: |
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That has been my complaint all along on digitals. I think Samsucks makes a flat panel that has 120 Hz refresh. It's is indeed smooth too smooth IMO, it has a weird look that is hard to explain.
Mike
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | That has been my complaint all along on digitals. I think Samsucks makes a flat panel that has 120 Hz refresh. It's is indeed smooth too smooth IMO, it has a weird look that is hard to explain.
Mike |
I saw the 120Hz Samsung's. Weird looking picture. Not film like at all.
You made a good choice Phil. If you have to buy d!gital why spend good money on it? Save that for the next CRT setup.
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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If you thought CRT has a tendency to burn in just watch that plasma.
I guess one of the artifacts you saw was dithering. As plasma is more or less behaving like a 1 bit panel and in some cases at best a 6 bit panel you will see a lot of artifacts for making up for the bad color depth by displaying every odd pixel with alternating brighter/darker tone of what's closest to the real tone. When that's not enough it tries to switch tones between frames causing a lot of noise. Especially in darker scenes.
It's nothing like the FRC that is used in 6bit LCDs that actually work pretty well.
Also people usually don't believe me when I say I can see rbe in certain plasmas.
Although I see them in CRTs as well.
Also don't get fried by the enormous heat a plasma puts out
Ill rather take a LCD with slightly worse black level that diaplays the information rather than a plasma that only shows noise at lower levels.
They do however look ok if you sit far away from them. But what display don't?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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Phil, all flat panels have some motion blur. The LCDs are worse than the plasmas. I hate the 120Hz with interpolation. These set's create new frames out of thin air, they ARE NOT doing 5:5 pulldown from film sources. I would avoid them.
If I were buying, I'd get the 768p Pioneer Kuro. Not sure the largest size of it though (don't think they have a 65").
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | That has been my complaint all along on digitals. I think Samsucks makes a flat panel that has 120 Hz refresh. It's is indeed smooth too smooth IMO, it has a weird look that is hard to explain. |
I saw one of those Mike. I don't really remember anything about it. I guess that indicates I wasn't very impressed. 
| AnalogRocks wrote: | | You made a good choice Phil. If you have to buy d!gital why spend good money on it? Save that for the next CRT setup. |
AR, I have a G70 and 4 new tubes in storage.  I don't know how long it's going to be until I get another house though. Maybe a long time.
| David_Web wrote: | | If you thought CRT has a tendency to burn in just watch that plasma. |
I had a plasma 3 or so years ago I acquired for resale. It had what I initially thought was burn-in. Turned out it was persistance. I'm under the impression that plasma burn-in is greatly exaggerated.
| Quote: | | Ill rather take a LCD with slightly worse black level that diaplays the information rather than a plasma that only shows noise at lower levels. |
But aren't motion problems worse with LCD? I find motion the most objectionable aspect of flat panel TVs.
| Quote: | | They do however look ok if you sit far away from them. But what display don't? |
That's true! That's why I downsized from 65" to 50".
| Person99 wrote: | | If I were buying, I'd get the 768p Pioneer Kuro. Not sure the largest size of it though (don't think they have a 65"). |
Dave, a Kuro is MUCH more expensive than what I bought. I believe a 50" would run around $3K.
Before I bought the Hitachi at Circuit City yesterday afternoon, I went home and researched 50" plasmas on the internet. As far as I can tell, $1,250 was the best price available ANYWHERE for a 1080i 50" plasma. Again I didn't care how good it was, because I don't like any of them. My only criteria was it be 1080i, 50" and cheap. After some further research today, I think I accomplished my goal.
I say this in all seriousness: I don't know why flat panel TVs replaced CRT TVs.
I don't consider myself a real picky person. If something is "ok", that good enough for me. The reason I don't like flat panel TVs is the difference in their PQ and CRT TV's is glaring! There's a significant difference!
I think this really shows how much the vast majority of people simply don't give a rat's ass about PQ. They just don't care. Flat panel TVs look neat and admittedly are more convenient. That seems to be what matters most. I realize now that the demise of CRT TV was purely due to form factor and had zero to do with PQ. How depressing.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: |
| Person99 wrote: | | If I were buying, I'd get the 768p Pioneer Kuro. Not sure the largest size of it though (don't think they have a 65"). |
Dave, a Kuro is MUCH more expensive than what I bought. I believe a 50" would run around $3K. |
They are the best. 
Also, I said 768p because the 768p Kuro looks better then everyone else's 1080p plasmas and is priced like their 1080p sets.
| Phil Smith wrote: | | My only criteria was it be 1080i, 50" and cheap. |
There is no such thing as a 1080i plasma. So, I'm guessing you meant 1080p. If so, you got suckered in by the "resolution is most important" mentality. As stated above, the 768p Kuro looks better because it has much better CR and grayscale accuracy than all the other 1080p plasmas.
One of the recent magazines in one of their single blind shootouts of plasmas put the 768p Kuro in with all the "best" 1080p plasmas because it cost about the same as them. It won the shootout because it was so superior to all the 1080p plasmas. Resolution is about the 4th most important thing to image quality. I learned this first hand recently looking at digitals when I did some head to heads and the best of the 720p DLPs all looked better than all the 1080p LCDs.
As an aside, I think anyone that drops $2000+ on a 1080p LCD is f*ck***' nuts. For <$1000 you can get a much better picture in a good 720p DLP! (But, that is another thread  .)
But, since you already bought--just enjoy your new display! 
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | | I realize now that the demise of CRT TV was purely due to form factor and had zero to do with PQ. How depressing. |
Phil,
You're going way too far. "Just" form factor? That's almost like saying we don't have horse and buggies any more "just" because of the internal combustion engine. I'm one of those that really doesn't miss direct-view CRT. As far as I'm concerned, they're a GD pain in the ass. I don't miss them one bit, the heavy mother-F'ers. Took up a GIANT chunk of floor space, too. I, for one LOVE that you can hang a TV on wall, or set it on a stand on a thin piece of furniture like a credenze and it doesn't chew up 6 square feet of floor. They always looked goofy sitting in the center of the room because they stuck out so far, but they didn't work in the corner because then the speakers were in a goofy place.
Besides, I don't know what you were looking at - I think the source must have had a lot to do with it - because, some of these new flat panel displays are EXCELLENT. Tack sharp, no convergence or focus issues, excellent primaries and gamut... small form factor. What's not to like? I think you really need to hook up a good source, and get it calibrated in your room before make judgments.
| David_Web wrote: | | Ill rather take a LCD with slightly worse black level that diaplays the information rather than a plasma that only shows noise at lower levels. |
David, your opinion doesn't seem to be supported by what I've read and experienced. Those "slightly worse black levels" in the LCD make a HUGE difference. I read a test in one of the magazines where they had some casual viewers come and compare a bunch of 1080p LCD's and rate them for best PQ. For fun, they threw in a 720p or 768p plasma. Guess which one won hands-down?
If you have a room with some light in it and you want to watch during the day, LCD is really nice. They're thin, light, and pretty power-efficient. They do put out some heat, though. If you're more into watching in the evenings or at night and have some light control and love CRT-like blacks and color, then some of the plasmas are excellent.
I bought a 37" LCD for my wife for the living room (lots of light), and we're pretty happy with it. I would have considered a plasma, but 18 months or so ago when I bought it, comparably-priced plasmas were ED/480p (huge pixels) instead of the 720/768p LCDs I was looking at. I can't believe what the prices have done in the last two years. Anyway, the LCD was really bright, and has served is really well for "general TV in the living room" duty. I bet you'll end up really like the plasma.
Oh, and Phil - Quit calling it a 1080i plasma. There's nothing interlaced or 1080i about it, other than 1080i is a signal it will accept and display. It's probably a 1080p panel, yes?
SC
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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | There is no such thing as a 1080i plasma. |
Doesn't 1080i capable count?
Perfect timing. I took my parents shopping this weekend and was thinking about putting my experience in.
Talking with them, the size they wanted and distance they'd be from the TV, I determined 1080p offered them nothing they would enjoy.
After our shopping trip, I used mathematical induction to proved a hypothesis I've had for some time:
Specifications = Bullcaca != what you think looks good.
I looked around online to see what was in the price range, and saw a bunch of 720p/1080p Plasmas and LCDs. They had a 720p Panasonic plasma in the range, and Panasonic make the best plasma IMHO. Checked the specs and scoffed at its 1024 x 768 native res. Figured the specs were wrong or it was junk.
We hit a lot of places, and one had a panny on next to a couple of similar sized 1080p plasmas. The image on the 720p was much sharper and smoked them all. So I played around with them and found the signal was 1080i. Most all TVs in the same size and price range weren't as good as well, no matter what the specs said. The others were just soft, and any detail that was gained by 1920x1080p was completely lost.
Higher up on the food chain wasn't the case. Came to the conclusion that most in the same price ranged used a deinterlacing algorithm that was crap in comparison to the 720p deinterlacing/downscaling algorithms. I'm sure taking a larger sized picture and scaling it down helped too.
Then I looked at the specs, and it was one of the 1024x768 native res. Figuring it was wrong, I did some reading and some plasmas used rectangular pixels since smaller pixels cost a boat load more, and your eye is less sensitive to vertical lines then horizontal. Considering what it did to most 1920x1080 native res devices in the same range, I can't argue.
I didn't see if they had a 1366 x 768 version to compare, so I won't say you can't tell the difference between 1024 or 1366, but I will say it toppled other manufacturers 1080p TVs both in the LCD and plasma arena.
Now, if you throw a BR disk on it and compared it to the other, probably not the case, but if you're watching nothing but TV 1080p may not be the best choice if you're on a lower budget.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Angus_rg wrote: | | Panasonic make the best plasma IMHO. |
They are the pretty good of the "cheaper" ones. But you really need to see a Kuro. Those things are awesome.
To give you an idea, the best black level on any Panasonic plasma is 0.012 ft-L. The black level of the Kuro? 0.004 ft-L!!!
The ANSI CR of the Kuro is over 3000:1!!!! There is no other flat panel made that is even over 1500:1!!!!!!
Oh, and yes, manufacturer specs are useless. But actual measured numbers are worth looking at.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with Dave, CRT  Pioneer Elite Kuro
I'm jumping ship
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | I'm with Dave, CRT Pioneer Elite Kuro
I'm jumping ship |
Yeah and pigs fly!
Mike
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | I'm with Dave, CRT Pioneer Elite Kuro
I'm jumping ship |
When did I ever say "CRT "
We were discussing the merits of flat panels. I did go into a little side comment about digital projectors, but I never said CRTs suck.
Hell, I don't know why Phil didn't just pick up a used Mitsu CRT RPTV.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
Hell, I don't know why Phil didn't just pick up a used Mitsu CRT RPTV. |
I hear that 8.5 years on mine and still goin strong except for a little 4:3 scares.
Mike
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Angus_rg wrote: | | Panasonic make the best plasma IMHO. |
They are the pretty good of the "cheaper" ones. But you really need to see a Kuro. Those things are awesome.
To give you an idea, the best black level on any Panasonic plasma is 0.012 ft-L. The black level of the Kuro? 0.004 ft-L!!!
The ANSI CR of the Kuro is over 3000:1!!!! There is no other flat panel made that is even over 1500:1!!!!!!
Oh, and yes, manufacturer specs are useless. But actual measured numbers are worth looking at. |
Come on, the specs aren't useless. They're great for comparing 2 TVs from the same manufacturer manufactured within the same week. 
For the price of a Kuro, there are a lot of other things that would make my home theater experience much better unless it can promise a "happy ending" every time I use it. Of course, to me, flat panels are like a Readers Digest; great for a bathroom read, but you're not going to take it on a trip for fun reading.
Based on the numbers you threw out, I think you missed my point. Specs are like online dating; the pictures and email may give a good impression of what the person is like, it may be utter BS. DDs aren't always perky, and when they are, they probably have a lot of bagage. Neither situation guarantee you will or won't like the person they are attached to.
Would yout marry someone based on a few emails? Should you buy a TV off of brochure?
I can ignore my wife. I can't ignore my TV. Then again, ignoring my wife could cost me a lot more then any TV out there.
-Mike
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Wow, this thread is timely. My friend's mom asked me to help her look for a flat panel this weekend. I have said how much I hate flat panels so much that I can't believe people even ask my opinion any more. I have told her for months that she should get a used Mitsu CRT, but she thought it would be to big. Fair enough, as the space it would be in is rather limited. At this point in time, I figured that the cheapest flat panel is the best flat panel. I told her this and she got upset and said that the user reviews on BB.com said that the LG was great and worth the money. She eventually relented and we went to Sears. I saw on slickdeals that Samsung had a 40" LCD for $1k. We got there and I told her to look at all of the displays and see what she liked. She said she couldn't tell much difference between the Samsung and the LG. The Sammy was listed as on sale for $1399. I asked the sales guy and he finally came back and said I was correct. He then went to check the inventory and found none in stock. My friend's mom asked for the display model and they gave it to her for $900. All in all I think she made out. Of course, when we got it set up she realized that the image wasn't much bigger than her 32" CRT:)
I saw the 120hz Sammy Series 6 and thought it looked pretty good, but my biggest issue is motion. With all of those crappy flat panels, I was just happy to see an image without the problems. Also, the contrast was much greater than the others. I realize they weren't calibrated, but it did look much better. Personally, I would like to avoid flat panels for another year. When the salesman asked me which one I would buy, I said none of the above as I would go with a pj. My friend's mom thought it would be to big, but I was trying to steer her towards the now discontinued Sony LCOS RPTVs. Sears has a 50" for like $1200. I know a lot of people here like LCOS as do I. I think this is an excellent price for the technology even if it is 17" deep.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Morons wrote those--and they are incorrect. A CRT is the only display technology that can display an interlaced signal. All others (including plasmas) only display progressive.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Dave, sometimes you crack me up.
Don't be pushing that plate of crow away. Dig in!
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: |
I saw the 120hz Sammy Series 6 and thought it looked pretty good, but my biggest issue is motion. With all of those crappy flat panels, I was just happy to see an image without the problems. |
For video based material 120Hz is great, but for film based, I think it just looks weird, makes everything look like a soap opera and fake smooth digital look.
Mike
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