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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="audvid](using Dtronics DVI to RGBHV). [/QUOTE]
I assume you mean Dtrovision? If so, those suck. They are soft. You will see an improvement if you swap it for an HDFury.
[quote="audvid]Did you see any remarkable improvement of the picture with the processor VS 1080i from DVR?
Thanks.[/quote]
You will only see improvements in 1080i on non-1080i/p sources. All you'll get for 1080i is frame rate conversion and calibration features. Unlike most displays, you can use the memory blocks of the PJ to get most of the calibration features. Gamma mod is the biggest thing you would get with a Lumagen.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Axatax
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 403
TV/Projector: Sony VPH-G70Q (aka Barco Cine8 Onyx)
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 2- MPEG mosquito noise and macroblocking reduction. This is similar to the old Algolith products. The HDP, et al have none of this. |
Does the Radiance have an equivalent to Algolith's BAR and Gaussian NR filters? I was considering doing the DVDO trade-in for the VP50 Pro and eliminating the Mosquito, but the Guassian and BAR filters are the "killer app" on the Mosquito (contrary to the devices namesake).
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| Axatax wrote: | | Quote: | | 2- MPEG mosquito noise and macroblocking reduction. This is similar to the old Algolith products. The HDP, et al have none of this. |
Does the Radiance have an equivalent to Algolith's BAR and Gaussian NR filters? |
I've not done side by side.
| Axatax wrote: | | but the Guassian and BAR filters are the "killer app" on the Mosquito (contrary to the devices namesake). |
Not killer enough because they killed the products.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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armstrr
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| audvid wrote: | | armstrr wrote: | | deal closed! |
armstrr, you could be my twin in terms of system and viewing habbits. I have 9500lc ultra (2001). External Dtronics DVI to RGBHV box I too watch only primetime OTA HD shows using DVR (directv hr21) set to 1080i. Currently, I am using a Zenith DVD player with 1080i. I got rid of my Faroudja NRS and did not see a need for a video processor. I was talking to craig today. I am going to use him to calibrate my projector. He suggested the Lumagen HDP. My initial thought was.. why bother with another box in the middle when I am doing fine with 1080i right out of the DVR/DVD players. Which processor did you go with? Did you see any remarkable improvement of the picture with the processor VS 1080i from DVR?
Thanks. |
i have a lumagen hdp on its way. my ht room is at the insulation/drywall stage. i have a goal of sept 3 to be complete (or else i owe 3 friends dinner at a fancy restaurant. if i'm done, they owe me two blue ray each...) so to answer your question, i have not YET seen an improvement
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Electeohome marquee 9500lc, lumagen hdp, 9' da lite high power screen denon 2809ci paradigm speakers home made dual stacked subs
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audvid
Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| armstrr wrote: | | i have a lumagen hdp on its way. my ht room is at the insulation/drywall stage. i have a goal of sept 3 to be complete (or else i owe 3 friends dinner at a fancy restaurant. if i'm done, they owe me two blue ray each...) so to answer your question, i have not YET seen an improvement |
I am probably in the minority with the following comments and I don't want to get bashed either. If you disagree with my comments, thats fine but please remember I am not trying to start a flaming discussion. With all these caveats..
1. I got a lumagen hdq. It was setup for 1080p60. I compared it to a 1080i (using lumagen as passthru). I could not see much improvement, if any. There was one artifact.. at 1080p60.. vertical band video noise on about 15% of screen on one side. Apparently because of high band width. I do have the 9500lc Ultra. I was using lumagen's rgbhv out (using a dvi stripper and a hdmi switcher in series)
1.1 I did not do a critical comparison with and without lumagen using test patterns.
2. Based on lack of improvement, if any, I decided to go without a lumagen. I am using a DCDA1 dvi to rgbhv converter and it works fine.
3. Unless you have HD source components, you might consider not getting a scaler at all. At least in my personal situation, I seem to prefer less "processing". I am taking a 1080i picture and simply converting to RGBHV and I seem to prefer this path. With this unsophisticated and simple experiment, I concluded that "less is better"- hence no video processor.
4. My seating distance is about 21 ft and screen width is 95". I viewed the "brief test" from 16'.
5. I had mike parker mods and 6 pole magnets installed. I have had this projector for 7 years (I got it directly from Electrohome at that time). I am somewhat familiar with the picture. While I obviously cannot do a a/b comparision simultaneously, it seems to me that Mike Parker Mods offer a visible and significant improvement of the picture. The picture seems more sharp, more dynamic and superior because of mods.
If you are spending $1000 or so, its my personal opinion that its better spent on mike parker mods than a scaler.
Again.. guys..this is just one person's own opinion... Actually two people's opinion.. because another friend of mine had cautioned me earlier not to get a scaler (and he is an expert in video). With all the hype about scalers, I thought my friend was wrong.. but I found out the hard way that he was correct after all.. He has been using for several years, a G90 with component inputs and without scaler (and he bought a $35,000 snell Wilcox scaler years ago for his main theater room-which had some commercial DLP projectors.).
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| audvid wrote: | I am probably in the minority with the following comments and I don't want to get bashed either. If you disagree with my comments, thats fine but please remember I am not trying to start a flaming discussion. With all these caveats..
1. I got a lumagen hdq. It was setup for 1080p60. I compared it to a 1080i (using lumagen as passthru). I could not see much improvement, if any. There was one artifact.. at 1080p60.. vertical band video noise on about 15% of screen on one side. Apparently because of high band width. I do have the 9500lc Ultra. I was using lumagen's rgbhv out (using a dvi stripper and a hdmi switcher in series) |
Just to be clear, you used a dvi to dvi HDCP stripper so the chain was:
source -> hdmi switch -> dvi to dvi hdcp stripper -> lumagen -> PJ (RGBHV)
Correct? If this is the config, what is the DCDA1 for, it is not needed? I'm a bit confused.
A couple comments. 1080i and 1080p SHOULD look pretty much identical on any progressively sourced material. That is why so many of us advocate 1080i. It takes half the bandwidth, so you'll always have more headroom so it will always look sharper.
That said, 1080i usually is not so good on a 9" machine. The only reason being scan line visibility. Because of the larger tube size, scan lines are very visible from even 1.8x the screen width, especially on white areas. If you do not see very visible scan lines on a 9500 at that viewing distance, than I would suggest a bit more set up as your picture is not nearly as sharp as it could be. This is the primary reason people with 9" machines have scalers to do 1080i->1080p.
| audvid wrote: | | 2. Based on lack of improvement, if any, I decided to go without a lumagen. I am using a DCDA1 dvi to rgbhv converter and it works fine. |
Hey, if you are happy with the DCDA1, that is all that counts. But, I've compared every single DVI->RGBHV converter ever made except moome's new one and the Vision. Of all of them, the DCDA1 was the worst. Its picture was so much softer than the Ophit DDA or HDFury that my wife could immediately tell the difference!
So, I'm wondering if this is also part of the reason you did not see much difference between 1080i and 1080p. The dtrovision does make the picture quite soft, so it may be softening up 1080i so much that you did not see the advantages of the "no scan line" 1080p.
| audvid wrote: | | 4. My seating distance is about 21 ft and screen width is 95". |
Wow, that is 2.65x screen width. That is your normal viewing distance? Well, that may explain why you don't see scan lines at 1080i. Just a note, that is an unusually large viewing distance. In one poll we did at AVS, less than 10% of CRT users sat more than 1.75x the width away.
At your viewing distance, there is likely no discernable difference between 1080i and 1080p even on a 9". But, I would caution anyone from drawing conclusions from your experiences unless they have similarly great viewing distances.
| audvid wrote: | | Again.. guys..this is just one person's own opinion... Actually two people's opinion.. because another friend of mine had cautioned me earlier not to get a scaler (and he is an expert in video). With all the hype about scalers, I thought my friend was wrong.. but I found out the hard way that he was correct after all.. |
I would not make this blanket statement. From what you have said, I have little doubt that a scaler adds much value for you. But, your viewing distance is unusually large. Ask most of the 9" guys like Clarence if they would even consider running without a scaler to deinterlace 1080i and you'll get a pretty loud "NO". Because from their fairly typical 1.5x viewing distance, scan lines on a 9" machine are just too visible to tolerate.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Just getting the Gamma at 11 points from the lumagen to me is worth every penny, I tried using just my moome from the blu ray and it was ok but through the lumagen it looked great. it suprises me becaus Craig Rounds set it up and he did a great job with My HDQ M8000 set up before i got the moome using the RGBHV outs , going 1080i from my blu ray then having the lumagen do 1080i, i didnt have a stripper. Then when i got the moome I went to 1080p and havnt looked back. I sit close as well and with my 8 inch i saw scan lines, the softness that 1080p brings , and i will say its ever so soft, makes it more film like. Sound to me like you want a digital with the false sharpness they have. For me Film look is what its all about.
Athanasios
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audvid
Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | Just to be clear, you used a dvi to dvi HDCP stripper so the chain was:
source -> hdmi switch -> dvi to dvi hdcp stripper -> lumagen -> PJ (RGBHV)
Correct? If this is the config, what is the DCDA1 for, it is not needed? I'm a bit confused. |
The DCDA1 was not in the chain with the lumagen. I am using it now, absent lumagen. I compared dcda1 to the Ophit (I think it was the ophit- not 100% sure) and found no difference - but I really did not compare it with test patten or spend too much time on the comparision. I did not compare it to hdfury. I would like to try the moome card but I don't know if I want to go through the hassle of buying one and then trying to sell it if I don't like it. I am debating about trying out the new moome external. I am perfectly happy with the picture now.. especially that the Mike Parker mods make it a sharp/visibly superior picture. Even mike parker uses moome internal card (with his own mods again on that). So.. the itch to try continues... well I will wait and see how the first shipment goes..
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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
Hey, if you are happy with the DCDA1, that is all that counts. But, I've compared every single DVI->RGBHV converter ever made except moome's new one and the Vision. Of all of them, the DCDA1 was the worst. Its picture was so much softer than the Ophit DDA or HDFury that my wife could immediately tell the difference!
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I'd like to make a couple of suggestions:
Moderators:
1. Take this thread and make it sticky, or make a compilation of this and other related threads. There is a ton of good information in it. I was debating AVR/Scaler and came to the Scaler conclusion, but there is a lot in here I didn't consider.
Dave:
2. Take your analysis of HDCP strippers and create a best/worst like the PJ list. Comparison of features(and add ons like Moome w/ gamma to Fury w/ external gamma), and situations where one may be better then the other(long runs, portability, etc).
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audvid
Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Angus_rg wrote: | | I was debating AVR/Scaler and came to the Scaler conclusion, but there is a lot in here I didn't consider. |
What was your conclusion?
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audvid
Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | ... Craig Rounds set it up and he did a great job with My HDQ M8000 set up before i got the moome using the RGBHV outs , going 1080i from my blu ray then having the lumagen do 1080i, i didnt have a stripper. Athanasios |
You did not have a HDCP stripper while you were using lumagen? I did not try it but I assume even HDCP controlled playback is allowed via the RGBHV out of lumagen (or any?) scaler? I read somwhere that RGBHV out of hdcp sources is allowed since only an analog signal (hence Xbox and BD component out of 1080i).
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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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My skills are not yet good enough to get razor SHARP 1080p out of my Marquee(even if it were a 9500). The flexibility of outputting more then standard broadcast formats would probably help create a sharper display for me.
For people not as skilled with setup, it is probably golden. For those with solid setups, its not a necessity unless your a pefectionist and or enjoy tweaking/experimenting. I get crazy ideas and like to experiment, so a scaler makes more sense for me.
Speaking of crazy ideas:
Many Plasmas used rectangular pixels to create a 720p with a native resolution of 1024x768 to keep costs down because your eye is not as sensitive to vertical lines. Frequently, they look as good.
Theoretically you may be able to use a scaler for a 1600x1200( less bandwidth than 1080p) and get a better "picture". I have a feeling stretching/squishing the picture would soften the image, but it would be a fun experiment.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| audvid wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | | ... Craig Rounds set it up and he did a great job with My HDQ M8000 set up before i got the moome using the RGBHV outs , going 1080i from my blu ray then having the lumagen do 1080i, i didnt have a stripper. Athanasios |
You did not have a HDCP stripper while you were using lumagen? I did not try it but I assume even HDCP controlled playback is allowed via the RGBHV out of lumagen (or any?) scaler? I read somwhere that RGBHV out of hdcp sources is allowed since only an analog signal (hence Xbox and BD component out of 1080i). |
I had my Blu ray player outputing 1080i and had the lumagen deinterlace it to 1080p. But now that I have the HDMI card it outputs 1080p right from the player, just a minor convergence is all that was needed and lowering the contrast and brightness.
Athanasios
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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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audvid
Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | audvid wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | | ... Craig Rounds set it up and he did a great job with My HDQ M8000 set up before i got the moome using the RGBHV outs , going 1080i from my blu ray then having the lumagen do 1080i, i didnt have a stripper. Athanasios |
You did not have a HDCP stripper while you were using lumagen? I did not try it but I assume even HDCP controlled playback is allowed via the RGBHV out of lumagen (or any?) scaler? I read somwhere that RGBHV out of hdcp sources is allowed since only an analog signal (hence Xbox and BD component out of 1080i). |
I had my Blu ray player outputing 1080i and had the lumagen deinterlace it to 1080p. But now that I have the HDMI card it outputs 1080p right from the player, just a minor convergence is all that was needed and lowering the contrast and brightness.
Athanasios |
Just to be clear.. Blu Ray outputting 1080i to Lumagent RGBHV out at 1080p worked fine (prior to hdmi card)? This would also confirm that HDCP does not prohibit (unprotected) RGBHV out - as long as that device does not output hdmi/dvi without hdcp. Correct?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Not exactly like that, this was a year ago so my memory is not 100% , But IIRC I had to output 1080i because without Moomes HDMI card the lumagen would not output any image when i tried 1080p out of the blu ray, HDCP was working, i could get it to play far a sec then it kick in and shut down the pic. I tried evry config in the lumagens DVI menu to some how fool the player to think it was working but could not get it to play for more that a few seconds out the RGBHV. But sending 1080i I was able to. I think HDCP is only in effect when trying to input 1080p and outputing 1080p. Can some one else confirm this as I do not have RGBHV cables any longer to go check.
Athanasios
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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
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Bitwize
Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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This thread is incredible! I've learned a ton by following it.
I would like some advice on input/output settings based on this setup:
PS3 (games & blu-ray), Xbox 360 w/ HD-DVD, Dish HD receiver -> Onkyo A/V receiver -> Lumagen VisionHDP -> Moome HDMI card in G70VR.
I'm running 3 HDMI inputs to the Onkyo and running 1 HDMI output to the Lumagen (no upscaling on Onkyo).
Any advice/wisdom is greatly appreciated!
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armstrr
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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well. i lost my bet...but the theater room is almost done now (1 month late...) i am reviewing this thread as i need to set up the pj (hung!!!) and hdp.
i ended up with a denon 2809ci.
dave: if you're in the sarnia, ontario canada area...come on over: dinner and drinks (and a little crt/lumagen set up) are on me!!
would there be a problem sending all hdmi sources to the receiver 1st and having it output (passthrough only, no video processing) out to the lumagen?
this simplifies the cabling as the receiver will get the audio through hdmi.
have there been any significan upgrades to the firmware on the hdp over the last 5 months or so that are worth upgrading to?
thanks again
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Electeohome marquee 9500lc, lumagen hdp, 9' da lite high power screen denon 2809ci paradigm speakers home made dual stacked subs
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SYC
Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| audvid wrote: | | armstrr wrote: | | deal closed! |
armstrr, you could be my twin in terms of system and viewing habbits. I have 9500lc ultra (2001). External Dtronics DVI to RGBHV box I too watch only primetime OTA HD shows using DVR (directv hr21) set to 1080i. Currently, I am using a Zenith DVD player with 1080i. I got rid of my Faroudja NRS and did not see a need for a video processor. I was talking to craig today. I am going to use him to calibrate my projector. He suggested the Lumagen HDP. My initial thought was.. why bother with another box in the middle when I am doing fine with 1080i right out of the DVR/DVD players. Which processor did you go with? Did you see any remarkable improvement of the picture with the processor VS 1080i from DVR?
Thanks. |
Since you want to hire someone to calibrate your CRT projector, you must want the best PQ. A VP with R/G/B grayscale point adjustment is a necessary function. CRT's grayscale has a small R/B bump in the middle, which cause 400K or so deviation, and drop on the two ends. This must be fixed if you want the best. Another request for best PQ is to double or triple the frame rate, which can not be performed by most good player. In my though, I only find two ways to get these done: HTPC and VP. HTPC is too complicated for me, so I chose VP. My 2 cents.
SYC
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: |
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A) This really should have been a poll
B) The OP should have been updating the original posting to list the stated Pro's and Con's others are stating for the respective products.
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Trust no one. Absolutely no one. Advice of the board.
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SYC
Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Gino wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | I'm thrashing my Lumagen in a more complex way than most people and I have not hit a limit yet. 
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So Dave, can I ask.... why bother getting a Lumagen Radiance? Is it purely the input/outputs? Surely the new radiance offers improved deinterlacing/processing? |
Lumagen pretty much had film mode down. And their scaling is pretty awesome. So, if you are only scaling DVDs and watching film, there is not much in the way of core processing that you get. But, it does add cool stuff.
Some of the cool things:
1- Full CMS to correct both primaries and secondaries. The HDP, et al only do 75% primaries. With the Radiance, you can correct the colors on any display whose color points fall outside the triangle.
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What does 75% mean in CMS? I still can not get it. In a CMS, the final result shoud be some x,y offset in CIE 1931. How do we calculate the percentage?
SYC
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