| Do you think Toshiba is a quitter (HD DVD)? |
| Yes. |
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36% |
[ 7 ] |
| No. |
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63% |
[ 12 ] |
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| Total Votes : 19 |
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: Do you think Toshiba is a quitter (HD DVD)? |
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Do you think Toshiba is a quitter (HD DVD)?
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: |
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And here is a bit of news for you to munch on with the morning coffee ...
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jX6HSWnKmIo7Cu43akw8EG8A0RNgD908QGNO0
| Quote: | Toshiba's net profit plunges
36 minutes ago
TOKYO (AP) — Japan's Toshiba Corp. said Friday its net profit plummeted a staggering 95 percent in the January-March quarter due to losses related to its exit from next-generation video HD DVD business.
Toshiba's net profit stood at 1.25 billion yen ($12 million), sharply down from 26.17 billion yen a year earlier.
"Our net profit sharply fell due to the end of HD DVD business," Toshiba spokeswoman Hiroko Mochida said, adding the company incurred operating losses worth 60.2 billion yen ($580 million) soley due to its withdrawal from the sector.
Toshiba announced the end of its HD DVD business in February. The technology had been competing against Blu-ray disc technology, backed by Sony Corp., Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., which makes Panasonic brand products, five major Hollywood movie studios and others.
Apart from the HD DVD factor, Toshiba said its net profit plunged during the quarter due to a drop in flash memory chips.
Quarterly revenue fell 3 percent from a year earlier to 2.09 trillion yen (US $20 billion).
In the financial year through March, Toshiba's net profit declined seven percent to 127.4 billion yen ($1.2 billion).
The earnings report came after the end of trading on the Tokyo stock exchange. Shares in Toshiba fell 2 percent 848 yen on Friday.
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JustGreg
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3098
Location: Kenosha, WI
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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They didn't have any choice BUT to quit. The press release you posted sounds like they pushed it as far as they could and still keep the doors open. They had spineless warriors in their camp is the biggest problem. They shouldn't have showed up at a gun fight armed with a Microsoft.
M$ walked away from the entire thing, is going after Google or Yahoo or somebody they can win against to soothe their bruised ego's over the HD-DVD loss....and also walked off on it's XB 360 customer base in that they haven't offered a Blu-Ray drive. Those of us with one would also hope they'd offer some kind of credit voucher for a few bucks off if they did release the BD drive.
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"Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care!" --Jimmy Buffett
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| JustGreg wrote: | | Those of us with one would also hope they'd offer some kind of credit voucher for a few bucks off if they did release the BD drive. |
Yeah, but they can't afford it because they're losing their a$$es on the whole RRoD repair thing. How many BILLION have they written off over that whole deal? Then, there's the whole "discontinue XP to push Vista, but the users don't want XP discontinued" thing... Microsoft is kind of sucking wind at the moment.
Toshiba knew they had to call it quits. Microsoft gave them the shaft. Warner gave them the shaft. Best Buy gave them the shaft. They really didn't have a choice at the end. Actually, I give them credit for knowing when to quit.
SC
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Bucketfoot
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 698
Location: Centennial, CO
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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The bottom line in my view is that HD DVD was never as important to Toshiba as BR was to Sony, and they never put the necessary resources behind it.
From day 1 Sony had their full marketing power behind BR. So despite the fact that HD DVD hit the market earlier, there was a much higher recognition level with BR. The HD DVD marketing machine never came close to what BR was doing.
You actually have a finished product that meets the specification, which is sold at a lower price, and have a process to create the discs at a lower cost. Not one of these was ever really taken advantage of.
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting poll.
If there is one thing Sony is good at, that is failing at media formats. However, their large number of failures taught them what they needed to win. Toshiba had one hope to win from the beginning: consumers being smart. Anyone should have realized that betting on consumers knowing anything is a loss. Here are the various points at which toshiba should have quit:
1) Sony owns studios, so there is a guaranteed amount of content they could hold hostage. So, all content available on both BD and HD DVD was not possible and this could be used as FUD by Sony. At the moment the BD group was formed after the DVD forum rejected BD, Toshiba should have quite because at this point Toshiba had only one weapon: smart consumers that would use their buying power in their own best interest, which happened to coincide with the interests of Toshiba. Since smart consumers do not exist, they should have given up.
2) The DVD forum was trying to balance things that would be good for the consumers with things that would be good for the studios. Sony was willing to screw consumers in any way to get studios on their side to again maximize the FUD in number 1 (for instance: region codes). At this point, Toshiba should have known that it was a lost cause unless the DVD forum was willing to make HD DVD as anti-consumer as BD. Again, their only weapon against this was smart consumers--in other words, a lost cause. They should have quit.
3) Early on, it was obvious that this would be a FUD and spending war (spending on bribes and ads). Sony had the FUD in studio and hardware vendor support and were playing up the irrelavent area of a bit more storage. Toshiba did not engage in FUD of its own and was not in a position to outspend Sony on bribes. They should have quit.
4) When Sony bribed Warner to go exclusive, Toshiba finally realized that there was no hope. Hell, they quit too late actually!
In the end, Toshiba made the EXACTLY same mistake as Apple. They thought, "Our stuff is obviously better, there is no f*cking way people are stupid enough to buy the other guys stuff! We don't have anything to worry about!" HA!
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A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Bucketfoot
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 698
Location: Centennial, CO
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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I don't buy that either format was fundamentally better. Both have their own benefits and drawbacks.
You are definitely correct Dave that Sony's studio ownership was also a big issue.
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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I voted "no". Had they come in with an unfinished spec and had been late to the party then I would say, "yes" they are a quitter. However, they had a better product, had it sooner, did not flaunt it with a game console nearly to the degree Blu Ray did with the PS3 and they only folded when they saw that they had absolutely no studio support or marketing channels. I am thankful to have an inexpensive high def media player and a few dozen good movies. It was well worth my small investment in my opinion and I only wish I could say the same thing for Blu Ray. I can't stomach paying over three times the cost of my HD player for a Blu Ray player based simply on the fact that Sony was able to throw more money around, not because they had/have a better product. I'm not convinced but I still want to play in the game so I don't really have a choice unless I want to sit this technology out. That would defeat the entire purpose of my having a home theater so I will adopt Blu Ray but not until I have a warm fuzzy feeling about it.
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Brian Hampton
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1173
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't know how to vote.
But,.. When Toshiba started making the system boards for PS3 I was sure it was part of the "exit strategy." (And they have been making them for a while.) When you build the best selling Blu Ray player that's pretty significant in terms of where you stand with your own doomed format.
-Brian
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Bucketfoot wrote: | | I don't buy that either format was fundamentally better. Both have their own benefits and drawbacks. |
To a point. I think Toshiba thought HD DVD was fundamentally better because:
1) HDi allowed more uniform, faster, and cheaper extra features editing.
2) They both stored the exact same data, neither could be better or worse in this category
3) HD DVD had a better audio spec.
4) The spec was more consumer friendly without things like region codes
5) Players were cheaper to make so cheaper for consumers
6) Media was cheaper to make so cheaper for producers and consumers
The only benefit BD had was more space which was irrelevant for movies. I believe this is why they assumed HD DVD would be recongized as "better".
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Dave
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Bucketfoot
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 698
Location: Centennial, CO
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | To a point. I think Toshiba thought HD DVD was fundamentally better because:
1) HDi allowed more uniform, faster, and cheaper extra features editing.
2) They both stored the exact same data, neither could be better or worse in this category
3) HD DVD had a better audio spec.
4) The spec was more consumer friendly without things like region codes
5) Players were cheaper to make so cheaper for consumers
6) Media was cheaper to make so cheaper for producers and consumers
The only benefit BD had was more space which was irrelevant for movies. I believe this is why they assumed HD DVD would be recongized as "better". |
BD is also more secure, which is not necessarily a benefit to the consumer, but was very important in the studio war and is also a more durable disc (which is better for the end user).
Player cost would not have been a long term advantage, but is something they definitely should have taken advantage of MUCH MUCH more while they could. Of course now without the competition we won't see BR prices come down for quite awhile (and believe me they have a lot of room to do so right now if they wanted to).
Media may have been cheaper to produce, but again they never took advantage of this. This cost savings should have been fed directly back to the studios in return for lower sales prices. Can you imagine what could have happened if HD DVD discs were regularly $5 less than BR...
I'm certainly not arguing that BR is better, but that there were not enough differences for one format being "better" than the other to be the determining factor.
I was primarily an HD DVD fan from the start, largely due to the finished spec and better pricing. While I'm not a fan of Sony's historical business practices, that has never stopped me from buying a Sony product if it was the one that best met my needs.
I got both of my HD DVD players for $199 well before it became clear that BR would win. From day 1 I had set this price as my threshold for entering into the HD disc world. In the end I did spend more for my first BR player, but only because the deal included 5 free movies of my choice at the time of purchase (plus the rebate discs). Which in my view brought the player price well below $199.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Bucketfoot wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | To a point. I think Toshiba thought HD DVD was fundamentally better because:
1) HDi allowed more uniform, faster, and cheaper extra features editing.
2) They both stored the exact same data, neither could be better or worse in this category
3) HD DVD had a better audio spec.
4) The spec was more consumer friendly without things like region codes
5) Players were cheaper to make so cheaper for consumers
6) Media was cheaper to make so cheaper for producers and consumers
The only benefit BD had was more space which was irrelevant for movies. I believe this is why they assumed HD DVD would be recongized as "better". |
BD is also more secure, which is not necessarily a benefit to the consumer, |
Neither is secure. All BD and HD DVD security schemes have already been effectively side channel hacked. But, my point was from a consumer perspective, HD DVD was better. They don't care about the security.
| Bucketfoot wrote: | | is also a more durable disc (which is better for the end user). |
Actually, it was a less durable disc with a coating applied. The same coating could be used on HD DVD if it ever proved necessary.
| Bucketfoot wrote: | | Player cost would not have been a long term advantage |
Due to the differences in the optical systems and the fact that BD-J requires a more powerful processor than HDi, a BD player WILL ALWAYS cost more to make than an HD DVD player.
| Bucketfoot wrote: | | Media may have been cheaper to produce, but again they never took advantage of this. This cost savings should have been fed directly back to the studios in return for lower sales prices. Can you imagine what could have happened if HD DVD discs were regularly $5 less than BR... |
$5 was not a big enough delta. Plus, many folks (I think they are crazy) though combo discs where a GREAT idea. Those actually cost more to produce than a BD disc.
| Bucketfoot wrote: | | I'm certainly not arguing that BR is better, but that there were not enough differences for one format being "better" than the other to be the determining factor. |
In the end it was true. My point was, if consumers were educated, there were enough differences if only in price to make HD DVD better for them.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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In my useless fios rejecting, know less than nothing opinion, consumer education is where HD DVD failed. Or Sony paid them off too... 
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Bucketfoot
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 698
Location: Centennial, CO
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | ...consumer education is where HD DVD failed. Or Sony paid them off too... |
That was pretty much what my first post said as well...
| Bucketfoot wrote: | | The bottom line in my view is that HD DVD was never as important to Toshiba as BR was to Sony, and they never put the necessary resources behind it. |
So I would pretty much agree with you here
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kal
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | 4) When Sony bribed Warner to go exclusive... |
I've seen a few people say that Sony bribed Warner but I've never heard of any proof. Has this now become fact? Warner's said all along that their decision wasn't based on a payout (they had been quoted as say "I *wish* they had made us an offer). The Paramount and Dreamworks payout on the other hand was announced and public so I don't think studios have a problem saying if they've been paid.
I think HD DVD lost as well because its marketing campaign sucked. They did not market it very well as compared to Blu-ray. It may be that HD DVD figured that facts enough would lead consumers to make the right choice.... little did they know... 
Kal
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Bucketfoot
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 698
Location: Centennial, CO
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | I've seen a few people say that Sony bribed Warner but I've never heard of any proof. Has this now become fact? |
What the people I work with who were at CES were told was that Sony paid off Fox, not Warner.
The plan was for both Warner and Fox to go exclusively red together, but Sony bought off Fox at the last minute killing the deal.
I certainly cannot confirm this, but it came from people with very good ties to Fox and who have been very accurate in information both in the past and since then.
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kal
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | 4) When Sony bribed Warner to go exclusive... |
I've seen a few people say that Sony bribed Warner but I've never heard of any proof. |
So, your view is that Warner is so incredibly stupid that when everyone was getting in on bribes and deals from Sony, they missed out? I don't think think they are that stupid.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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I voted no. They just didn't have as much cash to bribe as Sony did.
Secondly, Sony was not about to lose another format war; at any cost.
wallace
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