CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[Tim in Phoenix]

MINNEAPOLIS - In Brent Swanson's basement home theater, there should be nothing drab about "Battlestar Galactica." He's got a high-end projector that beams the picture onto a wall painted like a silver screen, and speakers loom in the corners, flanking two big subwoofers.

Yet when he tuned in Sci Fi HD for a recent episode filmed in high definition, the image was soft and the darkest parts broke up into large blocks with no definition. Explosions, he said, were just dull.

"It kind of looked like they took the standard definition and just blew it up," said Swanson, a 33-year-old graphic designer and videographer who subscribes to Comcast Corp.'s TV service. "I couldn't really tell if what I was seeing was really better than what I saw on regular television."

As cable TV companies pack ever more HD channels into limited bandwidth, some owners of pricey plasma, projector and LCD TVs are complaining that they're not getting the high-def quality they paid for. They blame the increased signal compression being used to squeeze three digital HD signals into the bandwidth of one analog station.

The problem is viewers want more HD channels at a time when many cable and satellite providers are at the limits of their capacity, said Jim Willcox, a technology editor for Consumer Reports magazine.

"They have to figure out a way to deliver more HD content through their distribution networks," he said.

Compressing the signal is cheaper than costly infrastructure upgrades to increase capacity. Satellite TV providers — including DirecTV Group Inc. and Dish Network Corp. — also have the option of launching satellites to boost the number of HD channels on their systems.

While information is nearly always lost when signals are compressed and then uncompressed, the process can theoretically be made unnoticeable to eyes and ears — and Comcast says it should be.

But some viewers say they can see it. Willcox said complaints about compression have been showing up on Web forums, including the AV Science Forum, a site for serious audio visual enthusiasts.

"It's not exclusively Comcast, although Comcast, being the largest cable provider, is probably the largest target," he said.

Derek Harrar, a Comcast senior vice president in charge of video, said the company recently began using new technology on some channels to compress three HD channels into the bandwidth of one analog station. Other channels continue to get the previous 2-to-1 compression.

In a posting on the AV Science Forum, Ken Fowler of Arlington, Va., compared Comcast signals with those on Verizon Communications Inc.'s all-fiber-optic network, which doesn't have the same capacity limitations. Fowler found the higher-compressed HD stations, including Sci Fi, Animal Planet, the Discovery Channel, the Food Network and A&E, fared particularly poorly.

He analyzed the signals by recording them on a digital recorder, then transferring them to a personal computer for analysis. He found there was much less data, measured in bit rates, flowing to some channels than others.

For example, Discovery's bit rate was 14.16 megabits per second on Verizon's FiOS system but only 10.43 Mbps on Comcast; A&E HD was 18.66 Mbps on FiOS compared with 14.48 Mbps on Comcast. The FiOS system didn't offer Sci Fi HD, which Fowler's testing showed at 12.59 Mbps on Comcast.

He found the signals from the major networks and ESPN weren't getting the increased compression.

In an interview, Fowler said he reran his analysis about two weeks ago and found "basically the same thing."

Philadelphia-based Comcast wouldn't identify specific signals that are 3-to-1 compressed, and a Sci Fi channel spokeswoman referred questions back to Comcast.

Harrar said the company works to make sure any new compression technology is invisible to consumers, but Comcast is "constantly monitoring our network and making adjustments" for best picture quality. The company has been rolling out the new compression technology at different times around the country.

In fact, postings on the AV Science Forum from early April suggest the Comcast network has improved in some places.

And there are other reasons a high-definition picture can appear subpar: The source image might not have been recorded in HD, or the television's settings, the viewing angle and even the ambient lighting in the room could be the cause.

New York-based Time Warner Cable Inc. has avoided many of the criticisms aimed at Comcast, although the companies are technologically similar and face the same capacity limits.

Time Warner spokesman Alex Dudley attributed it to his company's testing procedures. He said that before Time Warner rolls out new technology that may affect image quality, it sets up two identical televisions in a lab, one with the old signal and one with the new. Technicians make adjustments until the pictures can't be told apart.

"The testers are our engineers who we call 'golden eyes,' who have a proven track record of picking up subtle differences in picture quality," he said.

Verizon's FiOS doesn't compress the signal once it receives it, and Willcox said it's considered the picture quality "benchmark." However, Verizon said the system is growing but is now available only in parts of 17 states and has just over a million subscribers — compared with more than 24 million for Comcast.

He said two possible solutions are on the horizon, an improved version of compression, called MPEG-4, and something called "switched digital video."

Comcast and Time Warner Cable have introduced switched video on a trial basis across their networks. In concept, it's like on-demand videos. The company sends only the channels the viewer is watching, instead of all the channels at once.

But switched video has its own issues, including possible slower channel switching times and compatibility problems with digital video recorders.

Willcox said cable providers can't afford to ignore quality complaints. Many customers are already picky about quality after paying $800 to $3,500 for an average-size, HD-ready LCD television.

Swanson, the "Battlestar Galactica" fan, is sticking with Comcast for now.

"It hasn't gotten bad enough for me to consider changing," he said.


.

[kal]

I'm not happy with cable or satellite HDTV myself. While it looks "ok", the bitrate is SOOOO low that it's no match for Blu-ray/HD DVD in terms of special resolution. Cable/satellite will frequently break up into a macroblocking mess on fast scenes.

Kal

[kal]

I'm not happy with cable or satellite HDTV myself. While it looks "ok", the bitrate is SOOOO low that it's no match for Blu-ray/HD DVD in terms of special resolution. Cable/satellite will frequently break up into a macroblocking mess on fast scenes.

Kal

[AnalogRocks]

switched digital video slower channel change time's

[AnalogRocks]

switched digital video slower channel change time's

[stefuel]

Well I think Fios sucks. The picture doesn't have the oompff that directv has. I thought it was a problem with my hd fury, so I tried it with a moome iss input board with no improvment. The picture was dark and soft. I pulled the HDMI cable out of it and plugged it into a PS3 and everything is peachie. So it'll be back to directv as soon as the contract is up.

[tri_joel]

I was happy with FiOs when we converted from Cox (really bad).

Then I got a PS3 for Christmas.

Then I picked up an HD DVD player on the cheap after a power surge fried my old Sony DVD player.

Now I can't stand to watch FiOs.

[DB Cooper]

I have Directv and my sister has fios next door. I don't know what growth and bugs fios may need to work out, but, without question my picture is better! I don't know but as they add more content and internet to fios I can't see it improving.

[Elaine Benes]

I used to have cable for everything, and the leading edge was their HD. I canceled the cable HD when I started capping them to computer and saw bitrates for 1080i BELOW 10Mbs, ridiculous. The macroblocking was so bad on some stuff you couldn't tell what you were looking at. The cable company swore up and down for 6 months they would send a "higher up" rep out to see my issues. They NEVER did, even though several appointments were made(I was stood up at least twice).
I've since canceled cable for EVERYTHING, they don't get a single penny of my money any more.
Satellite HD isn't much better, in fact, Bell Express Vu HD is just about the worst quality HD available, but I have to have something...
Funny how the money guys figure out a way to screw us every time...

[stefuel]

The difference is not all that apparent on a smaller direct view consumer monitor but when you try to use Fios's HD signal on even a moderate size fp screen is noticable from the second you turn it on. To give you an idea what I'm seeing, take the HD signal of your choice on a large direct view, then stretch a piece of (lightly translucent) cheap celophane over the front and try to watch it. YUCK!!!!

[dropzone7]

I'm pretty happy with my HD cable service. The broadcasts for top-tier shows like LOST look stunning. I run 1080i from all my sources including my SA8300HD DVR and it looks great. I had some freezing issues last year and problems with macroblocking but they came out and replaced the cable outside the house as well as some other things and that appears to have fixed the problem. Another issue I caused myself by running the cable coax through a surge protector. Apparently this chokes down the feed for HD to the point that it was unwatchable for me, freezing, locking up completely. Took the coax surge protection out and problem solved. All components of course are still connected to surge protectors but the coax does not go through it. My biggest gripe is that there should be more HD channels by now and the market around here is slow to role out the new ones. I also had to go through a lot of set top boxes before I found a good one. These things are mass produced and often go out to the customers defective. The only thing I hate about the boxes now is the new Navigator software which seems to slow channel changing and everything else. I still have a box with old software so I'm nursing it for as long as I can.

[dropzone7]

[Person99]

[Person99]

[Person99]

[dropzone7]

I sure wish Time Warner had some competition in my neck of the woods. There will probably be a whole new technology before we get FIOS here if ever.

By the way Dave, I'm sorry for calling you a pompous ass earlier but I figured it was only fair for your calling me "ignorant and uneducated".

[Tinman]

Due to severe compression, it's only over the air HD for me.

And SCIFI has got to have the absolute worst compression I have ever seen. Just try to watch an episode of X-files in SD!!!
Seen better on YouTube...

Marc

[Person99]

[JustGreg]

Time Warner blows in my neck of the woods too. I can't even begin to count the times I've had their 'technicians' and 'engineers' out to my house. The cable is fine the day they show up and for a couple days after and then slowly degrades to sh*t. Funny how that works. I'm convinced they have a rolling bandwidth scheme going on. Hell, it looks bad on the SD Hitachi RPTV never mind on 106" diag in the HT.

The POS Pioneer HD box in the HT is just that...a POS. I told them I wanted it replaced with their latest and greatest and they told me "It wasn't scheduled to reach End of Life replacement for another year so we can't." EOL???I told the bitch on the phone (sorry...she WAS/IS a bitch) that I'm not above helping it achieve that goal.

Their 'NEW' Navigator absolutely sucks raw putty balls. When in Guide the mini window blacks out if you're already on an HD channel whereas before their recent software 'upgrade', it worked regardless of what channel the box was on. Surfing the guide BLOWS CHUNKS. The listings blank out until you let go of the scroll button. THEN you get to see the listings. So you have to scroll...stop. Scroll...stop.
The macroblocking/lockups on HD channels are intolerable. I only kept a TW HD feed to the HT for football.

I've had the drop replaced from the pole to the house. The bastards were supposed to call me before they came to bury it so I cold let them in the yard...but they decided to just break into my locked stockade fenced-in back yard and do it without me. THEN they buried right on f*cking top of the 220V line to the house! HUMMMMMMM
The surveyor had previously marked with blue paint where the power was and orange paint to denote where the cable should be buried! I WANTED the cable run as close to the fence seperating my neighbors house and mine but no...they ran it RIGHT THROUGH THE GARDEN! Good luck tilling that now! The power is buried very deep so no chance of hitting that but the cable is only about 4-6 inches down.

Sorry...it was too easy to go off on a tangent.

Now when we call for PQ issues and TW sends a technician, they send a contractor who doesn't speak a lick of English. The only thing I could understand the last time (about a month ago) was...

"I don't know...good signal on meter."

"I'm not WATCHING your f*cking meter! How about you take your eyes off it and look at the TV in front of you and tell me what you see there OK!?"

"Oh it could be your television."

WTF!? "You're sh*ting me right? That's the best you can come up with? If you don't f*cking know what the problem is...say so! Don't stand there and bull**** me and tell me 4 TV's in my house, which has ALL NEW cabling (the house), is the problem!"

As I gave him the bums rush out the door I told him that when I get the level of service promised in TW's commercials I'll pay the f*cking bill.

I didn't pay it for two months while still calling and complaining. No credits...no promises...no customer service.

So...the cable, phones, and internet went out last month. I called, swore while paying over the phone...and then threw one third of my two year old GE 3 phone's & cradles bundle on the floor as hard as I could. Great....more remorse.

They have you by the short hairs if you've got a 3-in-1 package like we do. I periodically compare bundles with AT&T, Verizon, etc. (Well, not etc...that's about it). So far...TW still has them beat. Damnitalltohell!

[dropzone7]

[stefuel]

[Person99]