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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | I spent another 4-5 hours on this in the last day so I thought I'd post what I have so far. See post #3 in this thread http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=113347#113347
There's enough info in there now for the adventerous people to get started, or to at least read and post comments on what I've written.
Kal |
You spelled color wrong! 
And, did you just post a link to the same thread the link is in? Crazy...
Oh yeah, not complete smartass, this article rocks.
I don't feel like purchasing a spyder2 but now I feel like I have to.
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Nothing wrong with the spelling, colour!
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Walter
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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tommo2
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Wicked thread, Thanks Kal, keep it coming.
Aswell: You are probably going to trigger a lot of sales for the spyder2 and the related calibration discs and programs.
Would be worth looking at getting a discounted price for it all as a bundle deal.
Maybe get a price for 10 of each item, and if enough people are interested (and I believe there will be plenty) you can order them in multiples of 10 for a lower price.
A few logistics to be sorted out, like do we pay you and then you order on our behalf and direct the suopplier to ship them to us.
Maybe multiples of 20 would be better?
Anyway, look into it.
At least then everyone would have the same calibration discs, software and spyder so the questions would be limited.
Worth looking into in my opinion anyway.
Cheers for all your good work.
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I would be in for a $70 spyder and a calibration disc preferably in HD DVD or DVD.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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A powerbuy with BD or HD and the Spyder and a tripod mount would be very cool!
Kudos to you Kal for taking this on and putting all the hard work into it. I've been around computers, cameras, printers and color calibration for years in the graphic arts field, but for some reason I wasn't too excited to climb the learning curve all alone - now I don't have to!!! Thanks to you!
SC
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tommo2
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Kal:
Can you explain how to set the G2 aswell.
I reckon at least this should all be done before calibrating greyscale, but a little note about it would help.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | Looking very good, Kal! Some comments:
Part 2, ftL target: specify whether the desired ftL level is measured with the sensor pointing at the pj or the screen. Makes a huge difference. (No, a 1.0 gain screen does NOT return 1.0 times as much light as what falls on it!) You tell them to point it at the screen later on, but it's worth mentioning here too. |
Thanks yes- I'll mention it before as well. There's still a lot of tweaking to do - I've just basically been writing and haven't moved things around/proofread/etc.
| Quote: | | Step 2.4: Remove the diffuser/filter on the SpyderII. (At least that's my understanding of how it's supposed to be used.) |
I get crazy numbers with the sensor off. Everyone else I talked to said leave it on.
| Quote: | | 2.5: Emphasize to use WINDOW, not a full-screen white. CRTs can't display full brightness on the full screen. |
I figured the picture was obvious enough, no? I can be more specific.
| Quote: | | 2.7: You're not using the black "toilet-paper roll" baffle? Aren't you concerned about the Spyder seeing its multi-colored shadow? Also, I'm surprised that adjusting the angle makes any significant difference in ftL level when pointing at the screen. It should all be pretty uniform. |
The first step for setting contrast has you max'ing out the ftL which can't happen if it's seeing the shadow, so it gets rid of that problem. Angle makes a huge difference for me when pointed at the screen.
| Quote: | | 3.1: That's a very interesting trick to set the 10% ftL level at 0.65% of the 100% level. Never thought of that. By my calculations it should be 0.63%, but that's a quibble. Measuring 0.65 * 100IRE is going to be a bigger problem, though. If you have 12ftL at 100%, then 0.63% is only 0.076 ftL. Will the SpyderII measure accurately that low? Maybe with a long-enough exposure, but even then I doubt it's very accurate at that level. Maybe it would be better to measure at 20% stim and shoot for 2.9% of 100IRE -- 0.35 ftL if 100% is 12 ftL. |
With the read time set to 2000ms, I get the exact same readings every time at 10IRE on my setup.
| Quote: | Suggestions for part 4:
* Draw a diagram that shows the grayscale response as a straight line, and show that the drive and cutoff basically let you control the upper and lower part of that line. You use that as a 2-point "curve fitting" to get the CRT's response to match the target response as closely as possible. I think a visual analogy like this will help people understand what they're doing a lot better.
* Explain blue hump, blue defocus, etc. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12844360#post12844360
Gary |
Thanks!
| Nashou66 wrote: | I have the Eye One LT, Will this work with your write up or do I need to make any changes.
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Yes - read the "what tools do I need" section again.
Kal
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Sorry I just saw that, one thing is my Eye-One LT doesnt have a blue filter but it does have the difuser, have you tried using the Eye-one LT at all?
With out the diffuser i have gotten crazy numbers so you might be right about that for the Spyder, so Should I leave it on with the Eye-one as well?
I tried is months ago and gave up but will revisit it now.
Athanasios
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| tommo2 wrote: | Kal:
Can you explain how to set the G2 aswell.
I reckon at least this should all be done before calibrating greyscale, but a little note about it would help. |
Thanks for the reminder- I meant to add something about that and forgot. It's important to set the G2 for equal tube cutoffs first, you're right.
| tommo2 wrote: | Wicked thread, Thanks Kal, keep it coming.
Aswell: You are probably going to trigger a lot of sales for the spyder2 and the related calibration discs and programs |
That's the entire point.
If you click and order items using the Amazon links in the "What tools do I need?" section, we get paid a small percentage (at no extra cost to the buyer and it's invisible to them).
While I do create these sorts of procedures out of the goodness of my heart because I'm interested in this stuff myself, writing the procedure takes about 10x longer than actually doing it so it's really not something I "have" to do for my own sake. I do it to help and to also support the forum here by collecting some funds to pay for hosting/etc and to entice me to write future similar articles.
So far 6 or 7 Spyder2's have ordered, a dozen or so test discs and one tripod. Grand total of about $45 in commissions for what so far has taken me about 20 hours of work and it's not done yet. So the equivalent of working for $1.50/hour.  I'm not getting rich soon but it does help motivate me to continue writing these sorts of articles when I see people supporting the cause by purchasing through the Amazon links.
| Quote: | Would be worth looking at getting a discounted price for it all as a bundle deal.
Maybe get a price for 10 of each item, and if enough people are interested (and I believe there will be plenty) you can order them in multiples of 10 for a lower price.
A few logistics to be sorted out, like do we pay you and then you order on our behalf and direct the suopplier to ship them to us.
Maybe multiples of 20 would be better?
Anyway, look into it.
|
Not going to happen. This would actually work against what I wrote above (helping the forum by buying through the Amazon links). The Spyder 2 costs under $70 which frankly is a joke. If that's too expensive for someone it's my opinion that they should not be spending money on an HT in the first place. I'm a cheap bastard too but spending hours trying to organize a power buy so that people can save $5 doesn't make any sense to me. Power buys make the most sense with $2000+ items where you're saving a large chunk of cash.
Anyone that likes to see these sorts of articles written can let us know by purchasing the items from Amazon (and any other items too - anything you purchase once you pass through one of these links helps out). I'll be putting up Amazon.co.uk links too for those in Europe who want to order from there.
If you enjoy using HCFR you should also seriously consider donating to their cause. They work strictly on donations and frankly, it's a fantastic piece of software rivalling some of the very expensive packages out there
My goal is that when it's all said and done, for about $100 worth of hardware and a test disc you'll be able to do what a pro calibrator would do with his $2000+ package and charge you $500 for the service. Now the pro has done a lot of them and has some tricks that only experience can buy, but a lot of you will be able to get 90% of the way there. I know I certainly did.
Kal
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Nashou66
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:52 am Post subject: |
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Athanasios : I've never used the Eye-One so I can't comment. I've also read that it's better than the Spyder2 (this is what I say in the article) but I purposely don't push it because I have no experience with it. I leave the choice up to the buyer - both are listed in the "What Tools Do I Need?" section and I do mention that the Eye-One is better. I should probably put up a warning that the procedure hasn't been tested with one but all that's going to be different is the initial pointing of the sensor and whether you do or do not use filters/etc. The rest of the procedure is the same no matter what sensor you have. In fact the procedure is the same for any software too if you ignore exactly what buttons to press.
Kal
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tommo2
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:32 am Post subject: |
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Hey Kal,
Maybe you could clarify a couple of things:
The colourspace for HD and SD content differs. Do you have to choose one to setup and leave it at that. Will this mean that the other colourspace will be set up correctly or not?
Also, to set it for different sources. Many people have at least 2 sources for their projector. Is there a way to save different settings for different sources (like the way a PJ remembers geometry settings for different frequency sources)?
Or do you have to set the different levels in the source devices.
The last thing I want is a playstation with a perfect picture but a SD upscaled dvd player with a crap pic.
Cheers
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Quote: | | Step 2.4: Remove the diffuser/filter on the SpyderII. (At least that's my understanding of how it's supposed to be used.) |
I get crazy numbers with the sensor off. Everyone else I talked to said leave it on. |
Hm. I thought zoyd over on the calibration forum (who seems to know what he's talking about VERY well) said to remove it. On the other hand I think he's measuring a plasma, and you would probably want it off for a direct-view display like that.
I get very consistent numbers with the diffuser off, pointing at the screen, but NOT when pointing at the projector. Maybe I should try putting it back on and see if that makes it consistent pointing at the projector...
| Quote: | | The first step for setting contrast has you max'ing out the ftL which can't happen if it's seeing the shadow, so it gets rid of that problem. Angle makes a huge difference for me when pointed at the screen. |
I believe the SpyderII has a nearly-180° field of view. If so, then it will definitely see its shadow, and I would think that could affect the color readings.
Of course, the tube/"baffle" affects things, too. It narrows the field of view down to a small circle, which at the very least means your ftL measurements will be way low.
Gary
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timbo
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 82
Location: Brampton, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: Please don't shoot the messenger |
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Proofreading
Step 2.4 "Place to the sensor 3-4 inches from the screen,..."
Kal, I suppose the word 'to' has to go. I feel like such a dork, pointing this out to you. Here you are doing a ton of work and I'm "helping out" with this. Yikes!
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kal
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| tommo2 wrote: | Hey Kal,
Maybe you could clarify a couple of things:
The colourspace for HD and SD content differs. Do you have to choose one to setup and leave it at that. Will this mean that the other colourspace will be set up correctly or not? |
HD colour space is wider than SD but the D65 point doesn't change. This is why in the article, I wrote the following after you pick the colour space:
None of these options really matter for greyscale calibration. This is simply useful for seeing how close your display's Red/Green/Blue, colours will measure to the perfect values set by the HDTV, NTSC, PAL, or SECAM standards. These are called 'Primaries' (more on this later).
Also, to set it for different sources. Many people have at least 2 sources for their projector. Is there a way to save different settings for different sources (like the way a PJ remembers geometry settings for different frequency sources)?
Or do you have to set the different levels in the source devices.
How that works is completely dependent on the projector so I can't get into it as every projector is different. You don't set anything in the sources. You adjust greyscale in the projector/display. For what it's worth I use the same values for all my projector memories. The difference (if any) will be very subtle.
| garyfritz wrote: | I get very consistent numbers with the diffuser off, pointing at the screen, but NOT when pointing at the projector. Maybe I should try putting it back on and see if that makes it consistent pointing at the projector...
I believe the SpyderII has a nearly-180° field of view. If so, then it will definitely see its shadow, and I would think that could affect the color readings. |
I'll have to try it again but I'm getting good numbers with the way I'm doing it now. I'll try with a baffle and without and see what happens.
Timbo: Proofreading is good! Thanks!
Kal
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Please excuse me for not being up to speed on the thread but is this Spyder 2 device really viable for calibration of a CRT projector? If so then that's really exciting as this is very reasonably priced compared to things I have seen in the past. Sounds like it would be fun once I figured out what I was doing.
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kal
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Nice! Once I get the XG monster running again  this will be fun compared to what I have been doing. 
Hey, I just figured out what I can use my $50 Amazon credit for!
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the grayscale will be the same for both SD or HD so it won't matter if you use a SD or HD disc as your source or set up HCFR to SD or HD.
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Walter
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