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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: Moome EXT FULL-HD 1.3+? |
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Is there any plan for it?
Will it support added bitdepth or any of the other optional features?
"Optionally supports 30-bit, 36-bit, and 48-bit xvYCC, sRGB, or YCbCr with Deep Color up from 24-bit sRGB or YCbCr in previous HDMI versions. In terms of number of color combinations 24-bit allows for 16.7 million colors, 30-bit allows for 1 billion colors, 36-bit allows for 67 billion colors, and 48-bit allows for 281 trillion colors."
Although any weard format in the above quote might not be needed. But the ability to use a higher bitdepth will be very nice. Especially as CRT has the dynamic range. And on a small screen you could easily do HDR.
Also is it possible to output an i signal with a p input? Or would that only be a useless feature that few would use but expensive to implement?
While I'm as it would it be possible to have a non linear gamma ramp that is fully customizable?
Maybe via USB interface where custom timings could also be set. Might be too expensive though.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Moome will eventually move all of his products to HDMI 1.3 if there is still enough interest. HDMI 1.3 is unfortunately one of the most mis-understood things: HDMI 1.3 also adds support for 'deep colour' which greatly extends the number of colours that can be transmitted in the signal. Support for 'deep colour' in source content today is however non-existent as the Blu-ray and HD-DVD specifications (and DVD and broadcast TV specifications) do not include 'deep colour' and never will as the specifications are done and final. Adding deep colour support today to say, Blu-ray, would make the new discs incompatible with current Blu-ray players. You will therefore not see support for deep colour any time soon in movies. About the only place you may see it is in PC desktops and video games.
| Quote: | | Although any weard format in the above quote might not be needed. But the ability to use a higher bitdepth will be very nice. Especially as CRT has the dynamic range. And on a small screen you could easily do HDR. |
Yes, CRT can and does support the higher colour depth, but again, without a source with high colour content you won't see any difference really.
| Quote: | | Also is it possible to output an i signal with a p input? Or would that only be a useless feature that few would use but expensive to implement? |
That would require the signal to be interlaced. I don't think Moome will add anything like that in the future. Use a scaler.
| Quote: | While I'm as it would it be possible to have a non linear gamma ramp that is fully customizable?
Maybe via USB interface where custom timings could also be set. Might be too expensive though. |
Yes, expensive is an understatement. It's not the parts that would be expensive but the complexity of what you're asking for. How many scalers even have this sort of feature? And you're talking about devices that sell in the 10's of thousands. Moome sells his products 20-50 at a time and he's a one-man shop. For this reason you're never going to see anything other than the standard straight forward implemention of existing chipsets that are available today. there's an HDMI chip or chipset that allows the above to be done is made available in the future then maybe you'd see this. Otherwise I wouldn't hold my breath.
Kal
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | Moome will eventually move all of his products to HDMI 1.3 if there is still enough interest. HDMI 1.3 is unfortunately one of the most mis-understood things: HDMI 1.3 also adds support for 'deep colour' which greatly extends the number of colours that can be transmitted in the signal. Support for 'deep colour' in source content today is however non-existent as the Blu-ray and HD-DVD specifications (and DVD and broadcast TV specifications) do not include 'deep colour' and never will as the specifications are done and final. Adding deep colour support today to say, Blu-ray, would make the new discs incompatible with current Blu-ray players. You will therefore not see support for deep colour any time soon in movies. About the only place you may see it is in PC desktops and video games.
| Quote: | | Although any weard format in the above quote might not be needed. But the ability to use a higher bitdepth will be very nice. Especially as CRT has the dynamic range. And on a small screen you could easily do HDR. |
Yes, CRT can and does support the higher colour depth, but again, without a source with high colour content you won't see any difference really.
Kal |
I was thinking of all HTPC users.
I though "deep color" was just deeper primaries on the triangle.
Anyway as outputting anything other then 8bit/ch on the vga output is impossible DVI/HDMI is the only option to get higher bitdepth. If is it possible that is.
And I agree. The HDMI 1.3 standard is one of the most useless standards in existence. It is misunderstood at best. It just adds the ability to add a few new features.
Also the added bitdepth would give the ability to correct gamma in the HTPC without loosing quality as it does now. If you are playing normal content that is.
It all depends on if you can output higher bitdepth from the computer or not.
I might be wrong though.
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Yes, CRT can and does support the higher colour depth, but again, without a source with high colour content you won't see any difference really. |
Yes but Kal these boxes are supposed to FUTURE PROOF our CRT's. Sources with high colour content are more than likely just around the corner .
But in these specific examples of people wanting "1.3" MOOME products , Deep colour is the least thing people are concerned about.
| kal wrote: | | Moome will eventually move all of his products to HDMI 1.3 if there is still enough interest. HDMI 1.3 is unfortunately one of the most mis-understood things: HDMI 1.3 also adds support for 'deep colour' which greatly extends the number of colours that can be transmitted in the signal. Support for 'deep colour' in source content today is however non-existent as the Blu-ray and HD-DVD specifications |
Yes OVERALL It is misunderstood !! BUT for us CRTers and this specific marketed "1.3" product , the SPECS to us are worthwhile!! Bit depth, Higher bandwidth, And OVERALL Better parts implemented in these 1.3 branded boxes make them a worthwhile thing to desire in my opinion .
Specifications
- Fully HDMI 1.3 compliant! Including Deep Color support! A first!
- Higher bandwidth of HDMI 1.3 allows for 1080p/72Hz support and beyond (Maximum under HDMI 1.1/1.2 is 1080p/60Hz)
- Better D/A converters (12bit DAC) and op-amps than in any of his previous designs for the best image quality possible!
- *TWO* HDMI inputs!
- Toslink output, supporting up to 2 channels of PCM (uncompressed) or 8 channels of compressed audio
- Gamma adjustment/correction
- Remote control
I think ALL versions as SOON as possible should be brought up tothe NEW and IMPROVED spec , Not to mention there seems to better handshaking overall with sources and the latest 1.3 branded cables and inputs .
| kal wrote: | | Adding deep colour support today to say, Blu-ray, would make the new discs incompatible with current Blu-ray players. |
I really do not understand how you think that this would happen, how Would it make it incompatible with current players.
| kal wrote: | You will therefore not see support for deep colour any time soon in movies. About the only place you may see it is in PC desktops and video games.
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Take a poll of how many people here have either a Gaming console OR computer hooked up to their projectors, It is not a fringe group of people .
I really think anybody considering BUYING any MOOME product should tell him you want the "1.3" version !! That is the ONLY way to let him know YOU want the NEWER designed, BETTER performing boxes .
Bruce
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce 09 wrote: |
- Higher bandwidth of HDMI 1.3 allows for 1080p/72Hz support and beyond (Maximum under HDMI 1.1/1.2 is 1080p/60Hz)
Bruce |
For me this is big factor, while my XG cannot fully resolve 1080p@72Hz it is indeed what I run and enjoy the jitter free picture. Currently I am running analog out of an HTPC that works fine. I understand the new Moome NEC card does support HDMI 1.3 so it will be interesting to see how well the new card performs at the higher scan rates.
Mike
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| David_Web wrote: | | I was thinking of all HTPC users. |
Bu again, if the HTPC user is playing a Blu-ray disc, that SOURCE information isn't going to have "deep colour" information on the Blu-ray disc. Doesn't matter if it's an HTPC or a standalone Blu-ray player.
HTPC's can use deep colour if you play a GAME that can output deep colour. Blu-ray cannot output deep colour as Blu-ray discs cannot have deep colour information on them (it's not part of the spec).
| Quote: | | I though "deep color" was just deeper primaries on the triangle. |
No, it's just more bits per colour allowing for finer differences in colours.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Color
You're thinking of xvYCC colour space. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvYCC
It's a wider colour range than the Rec601 (SD) and Rec709 (HD) standards that define how deep the primaries or the corners of the triangle are.
xvYCC and Deep colour are often used together as both are part of HDMI 1.3. But again, there are no source devices that support either other than video games and computers. The Blu-ray and HD DVD spec do not include either.
| Quote: | | And I agree. The HDMI 1.3 standard is one of the most useless standards in existence. It is misunderstood at best. It just adds the ability to add a few new features. |
People think that HDMI 1.3 is the newer better version of HDMI and that they have to have it to be future proof. Yes and no. It's the newest version but given that basically NOTHING uses it, you should not be replacing everything to get to HDMI 1.3. The marketing people are not helping of course.
| Quote: | | It all depends on if you can output higher bitdepth from the computer or not. |
Not for movies, but for other content maybe.
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | I really think anybody considering BUYING any MOOME product should tell him you want the "1.3" version !! That is the ONLY way to let him know YOU want the NEWER designed, BETTER performing boxes . |
Moome's HDMI 1.3 boxes will only be worth having (IMHO) because they will likely use better quality parts, not because of HDMI 1.3 (you stated this).
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | I really do not understand how you think that this would happen, how Would it make it incompatible with current players. |
Because deep colour and xvYCC are not part of the Blu-ray or HD DVD spec. You cannot add something to the disc in a data format that the player cannot decode!
You need to read these:
High-Def FAQ: Is HDMI 1.3 Really Necessary?: http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/853
| Quote: | "Before we go any further, I want to emphasize something I said above. HDMI 1.3 adds support for several new features. HDMI 1.3 itself does not automatically bring those features."
So let's take a look at these new features that HDMI 1.3 supports, at least the ones that are potentially relevant to HD DVD or Blu-ray consumers:
Deep Color: HDMI 1.3 supports 10-bit, 12-bit and 16-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 8-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification, for stunning rendering of over one billion colors in unprecedented detail.
Broader color space: HDMI 1.3 adds support for "x.v.Color™" (which is the consumer name describing the IEC 61966-2-4 xvYCC color standard), which removes current color space limitations and enables the display of any color viewable by the human eye.
Now here's something that sure sounds impressive. Who wouldn't want a greater color range in their HD video, especially when it's marketed with a sexy name like "Deep Color" that boasts of delivering billions of new color shades "beyond the capability of the human eye to perceive them"? Wow, that must be great! Of course, it begs the question of what use many of those colors are if it's impossible for human beings to ever see them, but hey let's not get bogged down in semantics.
Yes, as terrific of a High Definition picture as we're getting now, the occasional color banding artifact will still intrude into a Blu-ray or HD DVD picture. This is something that Deep Color or the less flashily-named xvYCC standards might improve by smoothing the gradients between color shades with a greater range of intermediary colors. That's a worthy upgrade, but here's the problem: Neither HD DVD nor Blu-ray support xvYCC or Deep Color, and never will. Those features are beyond the spec of either format.
Really muddying the waters on this issue is the fact that both the HD DVD and Blu-ray camps have been advertising Deep Color in their higher-end hardware, such as the recent press release from Toshiba declaring that the upcoming "top-of-the-line HD-A35 also adds support for Deep Color via HDMI, allowing compatible display devices to deliver outstanding video quality - displaying millions of possible colors to billions of possible colors."
Doesn't that announcement flat-out state that the HD-A35 player will offer Deep Color? It sure seems to, but the wording is misleading. While the player itself may "support" Deep Color, in order for Deep Color to work it must be enabled in the player (possible), enabled in the television (possible), and the disc must be authored to include all of those billions of extra colors. That last one's the problem. The video encoded on HD DVD discs (and Blu-rays too) is limited to 8-bit color. So are the studio archive masters, for that matter. If some studio were to start authoring new discs with 16-bit Deep Color, those discs would be completely incompatible with the majority of existing players, rendering them unplayable. Such a disc would have to be labeled and marketed as an all-new Deep Color HD DVD or Deep Color Blu-ray format, and distinguished from the regular HD DVD or Blu-ray formats, discs for which would have to be released separately. Imagine the marketing nightmare! And for what gain? At its best, you'd get a barely-perceptible improvement in color fidelity. Yes, from a videophile perspective, even small improvements are welcome. I'd personally love to see it implemented. Ideally, both formats should have been designed with Deep Color from the start, but that isn't the way it worked out, and it's too late to change either format to incorporate it now. To do so would make no business sense whatsoever. Sorry, that's just not going to happen.
Long story short, even if you have a brand new HDTV that can actually render all of those billions of new colors (most can't), and even if you have HDMI 1.3 connections on both ends and every piece of equipment in-between, you'll simply never get those colors from a Blu-ray or HD DVD source. Maybe in some other type of product (like an HD camcorder or video game) or some future movie format, but not from HD DVD or Blu-ray. If you're in the market to buy a new HDTV, it might be a good idea to future-proof it by ensuring that it supports HDMI 1.3 and Deep Color, but in the here-and-now they aren't necessary. |
Also see the "Why you don't need HDMI 1.3" thread : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994
| Quote: | HDMI 1.3 Video
HDMI 1.3 also has the ability to support a feature called Deep Color. There are no current sources of Deep Color. Another HDMI 1.3 feature xvYCC will probably not see wide adoption. Sony is using this in some high definition camcorders (they call it xv.color). If you have an camcorder with xv.color and a display with xv.color, a receiver which pass this information over HDMI 1.3 could be useful to you. |
I think I need to put together a FAQ here and post stuff in a newsletter... everyone seems very confused about what HDMI 1.3 is and isn't.
Kal
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | Bruce 09 wrote: |
- Higher bandwidth of HDMI 1.3 allows for 1080p/72Hz support and beyond (Maximum under HDMI 1.1/1.2 is 1080p/60Hz)
Bruce |
For me this is big factor, while my XG cannot fully resolve 1080p@72Hz it is indeed what I run and enjoy the jitter free picture. Currently I am running analog out of an HTPC that works fine. I understand the new Moome NEC card does support HDMI 1.3 so it will be interesting to see how well the new card performs at the higher scan rates.
Mike |
Correct. This is a useful feature. More useful for the IFB-FULLHD card however as the XG really can't do 1080p/72 while the Sony G90 maybe can (though some say [Clarence] it's a bit too much and it gets soft at 72hz while 60hz is fine).
Kal
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kal
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce 09 wrote: | | kal wrote: | You will therefore not see support for deep colour any time soon in movies. About the only place you may see it is in PC desktops and video games.
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Take a poll of how many people here have either a Gaming console OR computer hooked up to their projectors, It is not a fringe group of people . |
Remember that I said PC desktops (not playing movies through a PC) and video games. Do you really care that your windows desktop is rendered with deep colour support or that your video game has deep colour? Maybe, but I don't think that many people care as much as those that would like deep colour support in the home theater for movies, TV, etc (none of which will happen for many many many years as both the Blu-ray and HDTV specs would have to be replaced with new formats).
Kal
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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A big point using a higher bit depth is that you can correct gamma in the computer without getting banding like you do now.
And just because the source material isn't more then 24bit doesn't mean that it will show an improvement. The decoder can remove more of the blockyness of the movie if it is allowed more space to work with. It is also possible to use post processing to remove banding that would otherwise show.
And who says that future content won't be created with higher bitdepth. Not all content is distributed by BR.
And a big part is also games.
ATI (AMD) cards seems to support outputting 30bit. I could not find any specs by nvidia though. 1024 levels is better then 256. Why can't they just output 48bit when they brag about their rendering pipeline being 16bit.
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Because deep colour and xvYCC are not part of the Blu-ray or HD DVD spec. You cannot add something to the disc in a data format that the player cannot decode!
You need to read these:
High-Def FAQ: Is HDMI 1.3 Really Necessary?: http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/853 |
In that context Yes the older players will not be able to utilize the new coding But it does not make the players "incompatible". Just like the PS3 will play PS2 Games . BUT a ps3 will be able to utilize Deep Colour correct.
[quote]
Why should I read it ? I don't post " Hey look at this new 1.3 product it supports the new DEEP COLOR" posts
I know EXACTLY why you don't NEED 1.3 . I just see all these product promoters Promoting these 1.3 hdmi products and get all excited . 
You should put your caveat on every 1.3 products popping up , it would be less confusing to people jumping on the 1.3 bandwagon .
| Quote: | | I think I need to put together a FAQ here and post stuff in a newsletter... everyone seems very confused about what HDMI 1.3 is and isn't. |
Do you mean everyone ?? did my last post inspire you to say this ?
I was trying to be clear of why you would want the new EXT box to be the 1.3 version and NOT because of DEEP COLOUR .
I never get excited when I read about a new 1.3 product "supports DEEP COLOUR" BUT it is at the TOP of every announcement.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce 09 wrote: | | Quote: | Because deep colour and xvYCC are not part of the Blu-ray or HD DVD spec. You cannot add something to the disc in a data format that the player cannot decode!
You need to read these:
High-Def FAQ: Is HDMI 1.3 Really Necessary?: http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/853 |
In that context Yes the older players will not be able to utilize the new coding But it does not make the players "incompatible". Just like the PS3 will play PS2 Games . BUT a ps3 will be able to utilize Deep Colour correct. |
You have this backwards. If they redo the Blu-ray spec and allow for xvYCC and deep colour, these new Blu-ray discs will not play in old Blu-ray players. Read the article. They will have to label the new discs very carefully so that people don't get confused. Just like you can't play a Blu-ray in a DVD player you can't play a "deep colour" blu-ray (if this actually existed) in a current Blu-ray player.
Only Sony can tell you if the PS3 can be reprogrammed to use deep colour for movies. I have no idea. I think it can do it for games though. I don't know if any games support it though.
| Quote: | I was trying to be clear of why you would want the new EXT box to be the 1.3 version and NOT because of DEEP COLOUR .
I never get excited when I read about a new 1.3 product "supports DEEP COLOUR" BUT it is at the TOP of every announcement. |
Yep. Because it's what helps sell.
Kal
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yep. Because it's what helps sell. |
TOUCHE Kal . Must be a tough paradox
I read the article!! Not sure if Josh is the lead engineer for Sony or not any idea where he got his insight from ?? Kal is there even a slight chance of future Deep Colour disks playing on existing players ?
I hear from Dragan and Dave they are a very RESOURCEFUL company so don't count them out , Besides they will not want to alienate all their ground troops that helped them win the war.
Bruce
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| David_Web wrote: | A big point using a higher bit depth is that you can correct gamma in the computer without getting banding like you do now.
And just because the source material isn't more then 24bit doesn't mean that it will show an improvement. The decoder can remove more of the blockyness of the movie if it is allowed more space to work with. It is also possible to use post processing to remove banding that would otherwise show.
And who says that future content won't be created with higher bitdepth. Not all content is distributed by BR.
And a big part is also games.
ATI (AMD) cards seems to support outputting 30bit. I could not find any specs by nvidia though. 1024 levels is better then 256. Why can't they just output 48bit when they brag about their rendering pipeline being 16bit. |
Very good post David, I was wondering what the D/A was on an ATI card I could never find any specs. I never see anything that resembles banding on an HTPC, I think the reason they don't output 48 bit is because the majority of the public is going digital, since the most display devices cannot render it why bother.
Mike
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scottatl
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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My little hand held Sony video cam supports deep color. I may may be able to produce better colors then Blu-ray, weeeeek.
Oh well, my family will look good with deep colors to show off my wife's over priced MAC lipstick shade.
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