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HDFury4 performance.?
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noos@xp37+




Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 464
Location: Berlin/Munich


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
I felt bad that I was not able to write to them. And won´t be for some time....
Let us know how it turns out.
regards
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 2nd Hdfury4 on its way for testing and comparing, to see if it the analog bandwidth is the same, and it have the same noise issue when running 1080P 72hz 178Mhz RGBHV out.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got the 2nd Hdfury 4, and it is identical to the other one all around, same issues.

The Hdfury 4 uses a buffer so they are sure it will run any length of RGBHV cable, i hope its the one making the noise running 178Mhz.

I have asked where to tap the signal before the filters and buffer to test, im waiting for a ansver.

I never had luck making the scaler GUI working, had a friend who made it work, but when he came here with his laptop, where it worked, well guess what, same issue as i had.

I even bought a new win8 laptop to give it a shot more, no luck.

So if someone knows how to make it work, please share.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now i have been waiting a few months for a usefull reply from Hdfury, how to best bypass the filter and buffer on the analog out of the Hdfury 4.

Here is a pic of both sides of the board, if someone can see whats what, here, and have a idea where the filtering and buffer is located, pleas speak up, and ill risk this board for testing, as the analog out is now useless.
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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U20 is probably the output buffer, is that also polised, can you make out any writing on it? U111 is probably the DAC.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
U20 is probably the output buffer, is that also polised, can you make out any writing on it? U111 is probably the DAC.

That was my guess to. or is it possible U114 can be the DAC.?


Ill shoot a pic of the writing on U20 and U114, its to small for me to read, need a hi res pic to look at.
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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
is it possible U114 can be the DAC.?


Why do you think that? I'd guess the DAC is close to the analog output, the d-sub connector, BTW if we find the output buffer, with a simple DMM it will lead us to the DAC too.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
is it possible U114 can be the DAC.?


Why do you think that? I'd guess the DAC is close to the analog output, the d-sub connector, BTW if we find the output buffer, with a simple DMM it will lead us to the DAC too.


Im wondering what L100- 101 and 103 is douing, if they put inductors to filter the signal before the buffer? Or they are power supply filters.( hope so)

Then the flow would fit from U114/ filters/ U20. just a idea. somewhere they also do a horizontal shift/centering, it only apply to the analog out.
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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
gjaky wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
is it possible U114 can be the DAC.?


Why do you think that? I'd guess the DAC is close to the analog output, the d-sub connector, BTW if we find the output buffer, with a simple DMM it will lead us to the DAC too.


Im wondering what L100- 101 and 103 is douing, if they put inductors to filter the signal before the buffer? Or they are power supply filters.( hope so)

Then the flow would fit from U114/ filters/ U20. just a idea. somewhere they also do a horizontal shift/centering, it only apply to the analog out.


I'm quite certain those inductors are the part of the local power supply, they are too large for signal filtering, sync shifting could happen anywhere on that board, the DAC isn't outputting sync signals.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just removed the 3 75 ohm resistors before the output terminal, and found a signal into U20, bypassing it, it did not change the noise running 178Mhz.

Wonder if the noise can be sync related.?
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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
i just removed the 3 75 ohm resistors before the output terminal, and found a signal into U20, bypassing it, it did not change the noise running 178Mhz.

Wonder if the noise can be sync related.?


You better put back those 75 Ohm resistors, those needed for proper signal termination. I don't see how could the sync affect the picture noise.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dont worry i removed all 3 resistors, just running the green channel, installed a resistor in the bypass channel. To make sure there was no mixup.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok R132 R133 R134 is RGB out of the dac, i removed those 3 resistors, and the 3x75 ohm resistors and did bypass the buffer/ driver with a 75 ohm resistor.
Same results as before, the high frequence part of the testpatterns break up when running 178Mhz.

So the buffer is not the problem here.
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Alex2014




Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 8
Location: Moscow


PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
noos@xp37+ wrote:
I have a Fury 4 here, and probably Baclay66 coming here in the next time. Anything we could test to help?

(I got the Fury 4 as my moome Ext 3d was not able to convert 1080p at 3d capable refresh rates to analog. The Fury 4 did - but my 9500 Ultra setup was far from evaluating on the high level that stridsvognen offers. But the Fury only puts out a 3d sync signal if in 3d mode - and that means all is output is scaled to 720p with high refresh rates. If I feed the Fury 4 directly 1080p high refresh rate frame-sequential - I did get it converted to analog but no 3d sync signal. While the moome card, beside many limitations, always offers 3d sync in a for CRT "natural" 3D frame-sequential mode.


It would be great if you can run 1080P 72hz RGBHV out of the Hdfury 4, and see if you get the same noise issue on the high resolution part of the SMPTE pattern, and its mostly after 30 min i see it.

I have no idea about the 3D performance and options, i never ever used any time with 3D.

Did you ever try to use the scaler GUI software.?



I have HDFURY4 and confirms the presence of noise at the output VGA (RGBHV) in deriving the resolution 1080P72Hz. Tested on test pattern BD DVE (digital video essentials) Panasonic BD-60.
The image displayed on the monitor LCD NEC 19 inches. Compared with the image output from the EXT V1 MOOME 1080P60Hz.
The picture through MOOMECARD noticeably cleaner.
The difference in the following:
1. Image via HDFURY4 noisier - noticeable moire / chromatic aberration on the lines
2. The lines on the test patterns through HDFURY4 pulse - it seems that the power HDFURY4 not filtered.
A similar difference was when output through the projector RGBHV input Vidikron Vision One.
But note that the red noise over the entire area of 32 square vertical lines were not
Using the image output by the scheme: PANASONIC DB 60 1080P 24Hz -> Hdfury4 1080 72 Hz HDMI output -> VIM-FULLHD V3 178Mhz get less noisy image.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex2014 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
noos@xp37+ wrote:
I have a Fury 4 here, and probably Baclay66 coming here in the next time. Anything we could test to help?

(I got the Fury 4 as my moome Ext 3d was not able to convert 1080p at 3d capable refresh rates to analog. The Fury 4 did - but my 9500 Ultra setup was far from evaluating on the high level that stridsvognen offers. But the Fury only puts out a 3d sync signal if in 3d mode - and that means all is output is scaled to 720p with high refresh rates. If I feed the Fury 4 directly 1080p high refresh rate frame-sequential - I did get it converted to analog but no 3d sync signal. While the moome card, beside many limitations, always offers 3d sync in a for CRT "natural" 3D frame-sequential mode.


It would be great if you can run 1080P 72hz RGBHV out of the Hdfury 4, and see if you get the same noise issue on the high resolution part of the SMPTE pattern, and its mostly after 30 min i see it.

I have no idea about the 3D performance and options, i never ever used any time with 3D.

Did you ever try to use the scaler GUI software.?



I have HDFURY4 and confirms the presence of noise at the output VGA (RGBHV) in deriving the resolution 1080P72Hz. Tested on test pattern BD DVE (digital video essentials) Panasonic BD-60.
The image displayed on the monitor LCD NEC 19 inches. Compared with the image output from the EXT V1 MOOME 1080P60Hz.
The picture through MOOMECARD noticeably cleaner.
The difference in the following:
1. Image via HDFURY4 noisier - noticeable moire / chromatic aberration on the lines
2. The lines on the test patterns through HDFURY4 pulse - it seems that the power HDFURY4 not filtered.
A similar difference was when output through the projector RGBHV input Vidikron Vision One.
But note that the red noise over the entire area of 32 square vertical lines were not
Using the image output by the scheme: PANASONIC DB 60 1080P 24Hz -> Hdfury4 1080 72 Hz HDMI output -> VIM-FULLHD V3 178Mhz get less noisy image.


Running the Hdfury4 HDMI in and out works well, the issue is that i cant make the scaler gui work.

The analog output is lousy, and my impression is that the Hdfury crew dont have the equipment and the will to improve on the Hdfury4 design.

Ill try give the scaler gui another shot, and if it wont work, ill ask Hdfury if they will make a 1080P 72hz with usefull timings, running around 200Mhz. so we can push raster ringing all the way out of the image.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im quite sure the analog output problem is related to the U20 output buffer/ opamp.

I have not been able to find another better type who will fit in there, so i guess that will be the end result for the analog output.
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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Im quite sure the analog output problem is related to the U20 output buffer/ opamp.

I have not been able to find another better type who will fit in there, so i guess that will be the end result for the analog output.

It looks quite similar to the one is used on the new Moome Barco board.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Im quite sure the analog output problem is related to the U20 output buffer/ opamp.

I have not been able to find another better type who will fit in there, so i guess that will be the end result for the analog output.

It looks quite similar to the one is used on the new Moome Barco board.


Its not, thats a 1.5Ghz opamp with 20 legs, the Hdfury4 is a 16 legged 600Mhz opamp
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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2789
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
gjaky wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Im quite sure the analog output problem is related to the U20 output buffer/ opamp.

I have not been able to find another better type who will fit in there, so i guess that will be the end result for the analog output.

It looks quite similar to the one is used on the new Moome Barco board.


Its not, thats a 1.5Ghz opamp with 20 legs, the Hdfury4 is a 16 legged 600Mhz opamp


Oh, I see. I theory the output buffer could be omitted but you'll loose the long cable driving capability, can you send the type of this opamp? (even through PM)

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
gjaky wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Im quite sure the analog output problem is related to the U20 output buffer/ opamp.

I have not been able to find another better type who will fit in there, so i guess that will be the end result for the analog output.

It looks quite similar to the one is used on the new Moome Barco board.


Its not, thats a 1.5Ghz opamp with 20 legs, the Hdfury4 is a 16 legged 600Mhz opamp


Oh, I see. I theory the output buffer could be omitted but you'll loose the long cable driving capability, can you send the type of this opamp? (even through PM)


I did bypass the opamp on the Hdfury with limited luck, i was not able to get the image right.

I can share the opamp type on the Hdfury as its written on the opamp. The one moome use, is his secret to share if he like.
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